An Old Dinosaur Needs Help

[Crazyfoo]

Greetings everyone,

I'm new here and am looking for some advice.
I was on the road full-time from 86-89, but have been completely out of the music scene since then.

When I got off the road, I sold all my gear, got married, got a regular job and turned into a regular guy.
Man I miss the good old days.

So for 20 years I've been out of the loop. I used to be pretty sharp with the latest gear, and what equipment was best for what, but technology has changed so much, I don't know anything now.
When I was touring, I had an Oberheim OBXa Ensonic ESQ-1, D-50, DX-7, Some Korg something or other that did strings and piano, and an old Roland SH-5 lead synth which I deeply regret selling.

Now that I'm in a position to play again, I would love to purchase a couple of keyboards that will "do-it-all" if there is such a thing.
2 keyboards that will compliment each other.
I would like one of them to be a workstation, where I can work on arrangements, and slowly build my songs using a onboard sequencer.

When I quit playing, MIDI was out, and I used it often to layer sounds (piano and strings) and whatever else the song called for.
I used a small midi switch box which let me midi any keyboard I needed to the master.

I know there's software out these days that I heard is better than using a "workstation" per se.

If primarily I want to write music and arrange, what would you guys recommend as far as keyboards and software?

Also, will I need a special soundcard to connect the keyboard to the computer?

Remember, I've been out of the loop for 20+ years, so I know I'm in for a much overdue education. Please be gentle with me, LOL
It's kind of scary actually.

I will want to start playing live also, once I can find some people in my area.

If I set the keyboard(s) up on my desk, should I get a small micro monitor set-up? How do you guys do it?
Also, what's a good keyboard monitor these days?

I appreciate you helping an old dinosaur out, I can't wait to get back into it.

Regards
Crazy

 

[Terr-or Form]

There is sooooo much you've missed over the years. Almost all the boards that are labeled as "Workstations" will let you split the keys, layer the sounds, arpeggiate (this might be new to you), etc.

I have used Yamaha and found them hard to learn on but, they have some great sounds and are very dependable.

Roland is easier to use and also has great sounds. I find Roland a bit over the top with all it's pads and such but they are truly in the top. The new G8 might make Roland a household name again!!

I have been playing, programming, sampling and sequencing on Korg for years. As a begginner I found their interface pretty easy and on stage they have been more than the workhorse I hoped for. The new M3 has been getting some great reviews!! What sold me the most with Korg was their drum programs - simply the best!!! I love the Cue List feature the most as it compliments the sequencer perfectly and songwriting perfectly. The Cue List function allows you to write songs in pieces. For example, I like to write a chrous first. Then I will start a new song and write the verse. From there I will start a new song for both the Intro and the ending. I then go to the Cue List and put them all together something like:

Intro
Verse
Chorus
Verse
Chorus (repeat two times)
Rhythm change
Chorus
End

You can arrange the parts in any order you want. After that, I'll assign my samples to one of the sixteen tracks in the sequencer and just play the keys to trigger the samples and record. As you can see, at it's most basic, the workstations are very powerful. Then when I play live, I just hit play and grab my bass while my wife plays the lead synth sounds. Jobs done!!

Some other features you will find in workstations:

Real time recording of guitars, bass, vocals, etc. Most workstations have line-ins that you can record along with your sequences.

Realtime Pattern Play and Record. Like sampling but you can record short phrases and trigger them with one key at the right spot in the song.

In track sampling - If you need more than 16 channels, record 8 of those channels as a sample, re assign that to a key on one track and you just freed up 7 more tracks!!

Event editors so you can make MIDI changes at just the right spot or, if you prefer, step record.

Changing tempo, pitch, oscillators, etc. to each individual track even as it plays.

and of course, all the programming tools of a loaded synth. You can make your sounds from scratch, save them as a program, call them up live or in the sequencer, change the envelopes, portamento - hell, everything and you can do it live as well.
-----------------------------------
This might help you to understand some of the problems of keyboard to computer interface:

https://www.keyboardforums.com/showthread.php?t=1192

I like to recommend that, if someone wants to record - get an outboard rack unit like motu, digidesign or mackie onyx. It takes a nice load off your computer and is best for good clear recordings. In any case, it makes it easier to transmit MIDI especially if you plan on expanding and owning software synths. USB is fine for just MIDI but beyond that you will be happier with units dedicated to the job. Depending on how much you expand (like 2 or 3 keyboards, outboard effects, etc) you may need a MIDI interface.

As to having two keyboards - that is purely ordered to taste. I would suggest going to a music store and trying out different keyboards and working from there. You may not need to keyboards anyway. One 88 key can drive more sounds than you might imagine. We have two and we use them but at first we kind of thought why?? If you need more sounds, instead of getting more keyboards, you can get rack with all the sounds of a particular keyboard without the keys. Yamaha has the Motif rack, Roland has the V-synth, Korg has the M3. Basically, you are adding another keyboard to your rig without having to carry another whole keyboard.

If you mean monitors as far as speakers - well, that's another long conversation. I say only this - how critical are you of your sound? Do you plan on recording and mixing down your tracks for CD?? How much are you willing to spend??? I use Yamaha HS80M as my studio monitors. They are sort of big but they have the amps built into them (active monitors and speakers are the wave of the future now). I have them sitting on monitor stands so I can keep my desk space. They cost me about $350 a piece but, like I say, I don't have to worry about crossovers or external amps - just plug and play. There are smaller and cheaper speakers and there are monitors that range up to $25,000. Again, it depends on what you want. I always recommend that you try out several different monitors at the music store. You will be looking for the flattest respons possible as you don't want something that will color your sound - true playback equals quality music. If it sounds good coming through studio monitors, chances are, it is good!!

I hope this helps. I also hope some of the others on the forums will give you some good feedback. Ask away with more questions as I'm sure we are all happy to see another keyboard player in our ranks

 

[Crazyfoo]

Firstly,

Sorry for the long delay.
Thanks for a great reply, it was very informative and helpful.

I'm still fence sitting and trying to decide what gear to buy.

I have a question, and I invite anyone to chime in with an opinion.

Suppose you didn't own any gear at the moment, and you had $8500 to purchase a Korg Oasys 88.

Would you? Or could you get a lot more value from that 8500 by purchasing several keyboards?

If you were taking the route of several, what would you buy for $8500 instead of the Oasys if you had the cash to spend?

Thanks

 

[Terr-or Form]

Jordan Rudess sold almost his complete setup in favore of the OASYS. If I had the money I would too. You won't have the computer interface or software for recording (like Cubase, etc.) but, you will have the finest machine that can do just about everything for you. I will say that you will need to get studio monitors and that should run you on average of $500 to $1,000 but who cares. The OASYS is the King and will be for quite awhile. It has superb sounds (haven't heard a complaint about any of it's sounds and that is rare as most people find something wrong with any brand), options for shaping music that most keyboards haven't even come close even trying, a ton of individual outs (L/R plus 8 individual outs).

Truth be told, they really didn't skimp with this keyboard at all!!

 

[Crazyfoo]

Have your heard anything about this Miko keyboard? By a company called open labs?
The specs look interesting.

You know, when I was playing 20+ years ago, every decent keyboard was 2 grand, it really didn't matter what you bought, if it was decent, you paid 2 grand.

2 years later, it was worth 700. I always took the hit and never complained out loud because that's just the way it was (and still is I'm guessing)

I was showing my wife some youtube demos of Rudess playing an oasys demo (holy f---!).
That guy is something else. I feel almost embarrassed to say I've never heard of him until about a month ago or so.

So wifey says "If you want it, go buy it" (I know there will be a catch)

I'd hate to spend 8 or 9k, and next year it's yesterdays technology.
maybe I'm exaggerating slightly, but this stuff changes at such breakneck speeds, I'm almost afraid of spending that much cash if it will be dated and 'yesterdays news" in a year or two.

I am going to see if I can find a store and try it out.
Hopefully someone in Toronto has one, I'm going next week-end.

 

[Terr-or Form]

You are right, keyboards then and now generally don't last very long (2 to 3 years - you nailed it). I posted a link about the miko and the neko and yeah, they look very serious. As I have said in the past though, I can't trust a keyboard or software that runs windows live. In the studio, that's fine. Dedicated keyboards like the OASYS you can trust and they have sooooooooooo much power that one must wonder why you need a computer and windows on stage in the first place.

Yeah, check out http://www.openlabs.com/timba-overview-neko.html.

Good Luck with the OASYS, I'm kind of jealous here

 

[Sargas]

Since you are new to todays technology, you might get very confused when trying to find stuff in the Oasys menus, since (as I think you've realized by now) that keyboard is quite insane (last time I was trying it in the store, I asked the ones working there if I could see the user manual, since my friends and I have been joking about how big it must be. When they gave me it, it was almost like a bibel, it was 984 A4 pages in only one language, and pretty small text).

On their website, Korg has a flash version of the Oasys touchscreen, that you might want to play around in for a while before going to the store, to save some time.

http://www.korg.com/oasys_gui/oasys_Virtual_GUI.html

As you might see there, this keyboard can do a lot more than you would ever imagine that a keyboard actually could do, even some functions that probably won't ever be used ^^

An example: If you go to Program --> EXi 1 --> OSC in the flash menu, you can see a "pitch slope", there you can decide the intervals between the keys. 1 is normal, if you put it to 0.5, one whole step will become a half step, and if you put it to 1.5, one whole step will become a whole step plus an additional half step.
So, if you set it to 1.3, or maybe -2.7, you get some quite odd results
(That's if the buttom-left thiniges are set to "Expansion Instruments". If it's set to "High Definition PCM Synth", you go to Program --> OSC/Pitch --> OSC1 Pitch (or OSC2 Pitch))

Have fun playing around with it

 

[RotorOnTop]

hey crazy, you did say you were going to play live? In a band? You did say people. If I had the 8.5K I'd get me a new Yamaha Motiff XS8 88 key workstation (3200$), and a Hammond XK-3c drawbar organ (2300$), and a Roland KC 550 keyboard amp (600$) and still have enough for a Motion Pro 145 Rotary Speaker System (1700$)...I play rock and this would be my dream set-up.

 

[Terr-or Form]

Since you are new to todays technology, you might get very confused when trying to find stuff in the Oasys menus, since (as I think you've realized by now) that keyboard is quite insane (last time I was trying it in the store, I asked the ones working there if I could see the user manual, since my friends and I have been joking about how big it must be. When they gave me it, it was almost like a bibel, it was 984 A4 pages in only one language, and pretty small text).

On their website, Korg has a flash version of the Oasys touchscreen, that you might want to play around in for a while before going to the store, to save some time.

http://www.korg.com/oasys_gui/oasys_Virtual_GUI.html

As you might see there, this keyboard can do a lot more than you would ever imagine that a keyboard actually could do, even some functions that probably won't ever be used ^^

An example: If you go to Program --> EXi 1 --> OSC in the flash menu, you can see a "pitch slope", there you can decide the intervals between the keys. 1 is normal, if you put it to 0.5, one whole step will become a half step, and if you put it to 1.5, one whole step will become a whole step plus an additional half step.
So, if you set it to 1.3, or maybe -2.7, you get some quite odd results
(That's if the buttom-left thiniges are set to "Expansion Instruments". If it's set to "High Definition PCM Synth", you go to Program --> OSC/Pitch --> OSC1 Pitch (or OSC2 Pitch))

Have fun playing around with it

Setting something by .3 or .1 or .7 or -.4 - there is a reason for this and this isn't new to Korg Keyboards at all. I'm changing pitches ever so slightly all the time to distinguish sounds. When an analog instrument is played, it is rarely if ever played in perfect pitch and tone.

I also think that one of the reasons Korg is easier to understand is because you don't have to use everything they have built into the keyboard to get great sound. They have wonderful support and, I'm willing to bet, that manual they handed you was only one of a few. It sounds like they handed you the Parameter Guide to make you feel overwhelmed and leave.

Seriously though, Sargas has a point. Definately try it out if you can at the music store. You may want more than one keyboard and you may just fall in love with the OASYS. I would just be sooooooooooooooo happy if I could take just one board to a gig. And how much lighter my rack mount box would be without the other synth and MIDI interfaces, etc. (and my rackmount is on wheels!!)!!!

 

[Crazyfoo]

hey crazy, you did say you were going to play live? In a band? You did say people. If I had the 8.5K I'd get me a new Yamaha Motiff XS8 88 key workstation (3200$), and a Hammond XK-3c drawbar organ (2300$), and a Roland KC 550 keyboard amp (600$) and still have enough for a Motion Pro 145 Rotary Speaker System (1700$)...I play rock and this would be my dream set-up.

Thanks man,

I clicked on your space and my dog Ozzy jumped on my belly while we shared a little moment listening to the first three songs on your space.
It took me down memory lane. I was leaned back in the chair, feet on the desk, really enjoying those first 3 tunes.

20 something years ago, my band was playing in a little dust trap called "Tweed" (in Ontario)
Down the road, the Jeff healey band was playing the outdoor concert at Trudeau Park.

It was the only time that I ever recollect not a single person in the club all night while we played.
Actually, no, there was some old drunk dude passed at the back of the hall. (just like in the movies, hat covering his face so you couldnt see him)

I wanted to sneak out the back and go watch Jeff Healey myself, it's so lame playing to a room with only the wait staff and a bartender, LOL

yeah, I remember now, I had this cool "Applause" patch on the ESQ-1, so after every song, I would hit it, we would all bow, say thanks and move on, haha.

I can see why the rotary speaker set up would be on your wish list.
Tell me something... with the advances in sampling technology, can you still tell the difference between a true Leslie type rotating speaker system, and a very close sample?

Regards
AJ

 

[Terr-or Form]

I can see why the rotary speaker set up would be on your wish list.
Tell me something... with the advances in sampling technology, can you still tell the difference between a true Leslie type rotating speaker system, and a very close sample?

Regards
AJ

To someone who is a musician and knows about rotary speakers, yes. To all the rest no. My keyboards have an effect patch for rotary speaker and I am please with the effect. Like all things with synths, you have to work at the sound until you get what fits the music. If you are a die hard, get an actual rotary speaker!!

 

[RotorOnTop]

AJ...Had to laugh about the 3 songs, ya didn't mention the 4th haha but I don't blame you it ain't my cup0t either. I love Jeff's music and styling, and if I'd had the chance to go see him I think i would of snuck out too. I've been in similar situations, back in 72' we were playing on one corner in a club and REO was on the other corner across the street, made for some very interesting breaks. I always wanted to see Stevie Ray in concert, and missed out.

I guess I am a die hard (very debatable subject), I do have a rotary speaker I use...I've tried internal synth leslie's (tweaked), and the internal digi leslie on my Hammond XK1, and after all the wood tone cabs I heard in late 60-70's they aren't quite the same. I didn't have "alot" of money to invest so I got the Motion Sound Pro-3X, and a Roland KC550 amp (this amp cranks), I run the Pro3X into the KC550 plus put a mic on it, trying to get that ol' (Duanne) Allman Bros sound, if you what I mean. I get a digi bass rotor threw the amp, and mechanical rotor from mic, all going to PA...one thing that is a big plus is portability.

I wish I had that ESQ1, I had an ESQ1, sold it and got a ZR-76, which I still use as my main keyboard. Ensoniq was the only American made synth of its time, and there's something special about the sound quality. Open Labs is offering up the Ensoniq soundbanks on their new synths at $5K...I knew there was a reason I loved the sounds. I even have two other keys that sit at the house. I probably use a dozen sounds over the course of an evening playing out, and I have them all in my user bank, edited and ready. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Crazyfoo]

AJ...Had to laugh about the 3 songs, ya didn't mention the 4th haha but I don't blame you it ain't my cup0t either. .

That made me laugh, I think we're on the same page there, LOL
I have some deep regrets about selling my stuff.
When I got off the road in 89', I put an ad in the paper, and a guy from Ottawa came down and bought the whole works.
My reasoning was every day I wait, it will be worth less and less, and I can always go buy new stuff later.

Man, I almost cried when I saw how much how much Roland SH-5's were selling for on ebay. I used one right up until my last gig.
From what I've seen, you can't easily buy this old stuff back anymore, and if you can, it's a lot of cash.

I loved the old synths because as a young fella, it really taught you the basics of sound building using different waves.
Having manual ADSR sliders were cool for instantly customizing your sound.

I know you can go in and program everything now, it just seemed simpler in the old days.

I am looking forward to having new stuff, it will be fun.

AJ

 

[RotorOnTop]

...one last keyboard worthy of mention for live performance ....Nord Electro

 

[Terr-or Form]

Outstanding synth!!

Just understand there is no sequencer or sampler onboard so you will need some additional equipment if you need any of that.