Are the Yamaha DGX-670 and P125 USB/MIDI Class Compliant ??

[Engineerjoel]

I use these two keyboards as a master USB-Midi controller with Protools and they work perfectly.

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But, I've tried connecting both of these two keyboards to a SiparioX Midi Router { https://www.lab4music.it/siparioX.php?lang=EN } which is a USB-Midi Class Compliant Midi Router. Neither of these Yamaha keyboards seem to communicate with the SiparioX over USB.​

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So, I was wondering if the Yamaha DGX-670 and P125 USB/MIDI Class Compliant keyboards?​

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[SeaGtGruff]

How are you connecting the Yamahas to the router? I'm not sure whether they work with USB hubs, so if you're connecting both of them to a hub and then connecting the hub to the router, try connecting each one directly to the router to see whether they work that way.

I don't see anything in the router's manual that indicates whether its USB port is USB 2 or USB 3, but I know that the manuals for some Yamaha models specify that they should not be used with USB 3; the data speeds for the two protocols are different. USB 3 devices are supposed to be able communicate with either USB 2 or USB 3 devices-- "downward compatibility"-- but I wonder whether they can get confused by the type of USB cable involved. In particular, if a USB 2 device and a USB 3 are connected together by a USB 3 cable, I wonder if the USB 3 device might mistakenly assume that it's communicating with another USB 3 device and use USB 3 data speeds which are too fast for the USB 2 device? I might be barking up the wrong tree with that idea, but it's something that I do wonder about. If the manuals for the Yamahas mention anything about not using USB 3, check your USB cable and change to a USB 2 cable if necessary.

Of course, if you're using a USB hub between the router and the Yamahas, that adds another can of worms, since there are different kinds of USB hubs-- USB 2 versus USB 3, powered versus unpowered, etc.

A third possible issue when using USB connections with Yamahas (and, I assume, with other brands as well) is the length of the USB cable. If the cable is too long, the lag time or how long it takes the data to travel from one end of the cable to the other-- and, thus, from one device to the other-- can become problematic and prevent proper communication between the two devices. I think most Yamaha models stiplulate that you should not use USB cables which are over 3 meters long, so check to make sure your cables aren't too long.

And of course, if you're using a USB hub then that adds another can of worms, because you wouldn't want to connect the Yamahas to the hub using 3-meter USB cables, then connect the hub to the router with a 3-meter USB cable, as that would amount to using a 6-meter USB cable. And that's assuming the Yamahas would work with a USB hub at all.

So I would start by individually testing each Yamaha with the router, directly connecting it to the router using a USB 2 cable which is 3 meters or less in length, to see if that works. Once you've verified whether or not each keyboard works with the router that way, you can try varying the setup a little bit at a time to see what works and what doesn't.

 

[Engineerjoel]

How are you connecting the Yamahas to the router? I'm not sure whether they work with USB hubs, so if you're connecting both of them to a hub and then connecting the hub to the router, try connecting each one directly to the router to see whether they work that way.

I don't see anything in the router's manual that indicates whether its USB port is USB 2 or USB 3, but I know that the manuals for some Yamaha models specify that they should not be used with USB 3; the data speeds for the two protocols are different. USB 3 devices are supposed to be able communicate with either USB 2 or USB 3 devices-- "downward compatibility"-- but I wonder whether they can get confused by the type of USB cable involved. In particular, if a USB 2 device and a USB 3 are connected together by a USB 3 cable, I wonder if the USB 3 device might mistakenly assume that it's communicating with another USB 3 device and use USB 3 data speeds which are too fast for the USB 2 device? I might be barking up the wrong tree with that idea, but it's something that I do wonder about. If the manuals for the Yamahas mention anything about not using USB 3, check your USB cable and change to a USB 2 cable if necessary.

Of course, if you're using a USB hub between the router and the Yamahas, that adds another can of worms, since there are different kinds of USB hubs-- USB 2 versus USB 3, powered versus unpowered, etc.

A third possible issue when using USB connections with Yamahas (and, I assume, with other brands as well) is the length of the USB cable. If the cable is too long, the lag time or how long it takes the data to travel from one end of the cable to the other-- and, thus, from one device to the other-- can become problematic and prevent proper communication between the two devices. I think most Yamaha models stiplulate that you should not use USB cables which are over 3 meters long, so check to make sure your cables aren't too long.

And of course, if you're using a USB hub then that adds another can of worms, because you wouldn't want to connect the Yamahas to the hub using 3-meter USB cables, then connect the hub to the router with a 3-meter USB cable, as that would amount to using a 6-meter USB cable. And that's assuming the Yamahas would work with a USB hub at all.

So I would start by individually testing each Yamaha with the router, directly connecting it to the router using a USB 2 cable which is 3 meters or less in length, to see if that works. Once you've verified whether or not each keyboard works with the router that way, you can try varying the setup a little bit at a time to see what works and what doesn't.

Thank you SeaGTGruff for the reply. I'm only connecting either the DGX670 or P125 to the SiparioX: not both. The SiparioX has only (1) USB-A Host port.

The reason I'm asking if the DGX670 and P125 are USB-Midi Compliant is because several of my other keyboards like the Montage, MODX, Kronos, and Prophet 10 all work perfectly when I connect them directly to the Sipario via USB...even their manuals do say that they are Class Compliant USB devices. But, my other keyboards such as the Yamaha CP4, DGX670 and P125 don't seem to work (be recognized) with SiparioX. I can't seem to find anything in their manuals that says if they are USB-Midi Compliant or not.... Although, they do work perfectly when I connect them directly to a computer and use them as Master USB-Midi controllers in Protools, Reaper, Logic, StudioOne, etc....

But, I guess I may be answering my own question and learning that the DGX670 is mostly like not USB-MIDI Class Compliant because there seems to be so many other DGX670 users that are confused and asking basically the same question as I. They seem to be wanting to use their DGX670 as a master controller but cant seem to figure out how to convert the DGX670's USB to standard 5-pin... MIDI.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I was under the impression that all Yamaha keyboard models manufactured within the last several years are USB-MIDI class compliant, beginning as far back as perhaps the PSR-E433 or PSR-E443.

However, models which are less expensive tend to have much less sophisticated MIDI setup options as the more expensive models. Although the DGX-600 series isn't exactly "inexpensive," the DGX-660 was one of the "less sophisticated MIDI" models, similar to the PSR-E line or XGlite models; but from the manuals it appears that the DGX-670 is similar to the PSR-S line or XG models, which have more sophisticated MIDI setup options.

Of course, the degree of sophistication in the MIDI options has no relationship with whether a given model is USB-MIDI class compliant or not, but there might be something in the MIDI data flow which is interfering with the two devices successfully communicating together.

For instance, some Yamaha models seem to rely on the use of MIDI Active Sense messages to detect whether there's an active connection with another MIDI device, and if no active connection is detected then they seem to turn off their MIDI output, except for continuing to "ping" the world by sending out MIDI Active Sense messages and listening for any answering "pings." Although Active Sensing seems to have fallen out of common use, a lot of older gear did rely on it, and some MIDI gear and MIDI software may have settings related to Active Sensing so you can configure it to successfully communicate with gear that does rely on it.

I don't know whether the DGX-670 and P-125 rely on Active Sensing, but if they do then it might be that your software is detecting the Active Sensing from them and automatically responding appropriately, but that when you connect to the router there is nothing coming back from the router to tell the keyboards that there's an active connection. If the router is simply connecting different MIDI equipment together, it might be relying on whatever devices the keyboards are controlling to send back any required Active Sensing messages. But you might check the router's manual to see whether it mentions anything. The manual didn't look like it had much technical information in it-- for instance, I didn't see any mention of which USB speed standard its ports use-- so you might not be able to find anything in it related to Active Sensing, but it might be worth a look.

Keep in mind, I'm just throwing that out there as a possibility to look into; for all I know, the communication issues you're having are totally unrelated to Active Sensing.

By the way, when you connect directly to your computer to control your software, do you have either a Yamaha or a Steinberg driver installed, or are you relying on the computer's native drivers? USB-MIDI class compliant keyboards should be able to work without installing the Yamaha or Steinberg driver, so that should be one way you can tell whether or not the keyboards are class compliant.

 

[Engineerjoel]

By the way, when you connect directly to your computer to control your software, do you have either a Yamaha or a Steinberg driver installed, or are you relying on the computer's native drivers? USB-MIDI class compliant keyboards should be able to work without installing the Yamaha or Steinberg driver, so that should be one way you can tell whether or not the keyboards are class compliant.

I don't not have either Yamaha or Steinberg drivers installed on either of my computer (either windows 10 or Mac 12.1). Just plug-&-Play.
Thank you, again for your reply and support.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

If you're able to use both without having the manufacturer's proprietary driver installed, that would suggest the two models in question are class compliant. So I would look into Active Sensing as a possible issue.

By the way, what are you trying to use the keyboards to control-- other devices, or software?

Also, if you connect one of the keyboards to the router, then connect the router to the computer (assuming you have another port on the router that you can connect the computer to), are you able to use a MIDI monitor on the computer to see if it's able to detect anything coming from the keyboard?

 

[KeyboardGuys]

Thank you SeaGTGruff for the reply. I'm only connecting either the DGX670 or P125 to the SiparioX: not both. The SiparioX has only (1) USB-A Host port.

The reason I'm asking if the DGX670 and P125 are USB-Midi Compliant is because several of my other keyboards like the Montage, MODX, Kronos, and Prophet 10 all work perfectly when I connect them directly to the Sipario via USB...even their manuals do say that they are Class Compliant USB devices. But, my other keyboards such as the Yamaha CP4, DGX670 and P125 don't seem to work (be recognized) with SiparioX. I can't seem to find anything in their manuals that says if they are USB-Midi Compliant or not.... Although, they do work perfectly when I connect them directly to a computer and use them as Master USB-Midi controllers in Protools, Reaper, Logic, StudioOne, etc....

But, I guess I may be answering my own question and learning that the DGX670 is mostly like not USB-MIDI Class Compliant because there seems to be so many other DGX670 users that are confused and asking basically the same question as I. They seem to be wanting to use their DGX670 as a master controller but cant seem to figure out how to convert the DGX670's USB to standard 5-pin... MIDI.

This is my personal use, maybe it can help you.
I have a USB MIDI host box (UMH-21) from DOREMiDi, which can convert the DGX-230 to MIDI five-pin, even though the DGX230's USB MIDI is not Class Compliant.
This should also work on the DGX670.
Of course, it is also possible to convert the Yamaha P-125 to five-pin MIDI via the UMH-21.