Converting to Apple From PC. Need DAW recommendations.

[happyrat1]

After getting hacked last year and spending a year trying to save my Linux install I finally bit the bullet and bought a mac mini today.

It's an m2 model with 8 gigs of shared RAM and a 512 gig SDD.

I need recommendations on a decent but not overkill DAW, that supports multiple MIDI hardware instruments as well as VSTis. (But mainly hardware friendly.)

I'm migrating from Cakewalk on the PC so something with a similar workflow might be nice.

If it can import cakewalk music files it would blow my mind but I'm just wishing out loud there.

Tried most of the free options on Linux and none of seemed useful or stable.

Looking to spend $200 or less with free updates for eternity if possible.

And I'd rather not clutter up the virgin machine with a boatload of trial installations either.

If you use a particular Apple DAW, please tell us which one and why you consider it to be the best choice.

Also any tips on what other software I may not be able to live without would be very welcome as well.

Now I'm off to youtube to see what there is to see in videoland.

Thanks for listening,

Gary

 

[Biggles]

Gary
Logic Pro is the main DAW, it is an Apple product.

Then there is Mainstage which integrates with Logic Pro and it can be used as a stand alone, it does come with 6Gb of VST’s. I understand it is the defacto standard by touring or gigging musicians.

My Wife has an iMac, its been super reliable in the ten years we have had it. The 5k display is stunning.

I only installed Mainstage on it and am quite impressed with its capabilities.

I have FL Studio on my iPad and it is quite impressive, I use it for its inclusive VSTs which I find pretty good, it is the Mobile version and there is a full Mac version that is available, its £80 here.

I believe Ableton is available in a Mac version, but you will need to check if that is correct.

Good luck

 

[Kaneda]

After getting hacked last year and spending a year trying to save my Linux install I finally bit the bullet and bought a mac mini today.

Mac. Good choice.

It's an m2 model with 8 gigs of shared RAM and a 512 gig SDD.

You might be alright, but that's the baseline configuration. 16Gb of RAM and a 1Tb SSD wouldn't have hurt...

I need recommendations on a decent but not overkill DAW, that supports multiple MIDI hardware instruments as well as VSTis. (But mainly hardware friendly.)

Lots of choice, but the most obvious choice would be Cubase for a more traditional approach (closest tot Cakewalk, I believe), Ableton Live, loop based at its core but has a traditional timeline as well, or Apple's Logic Pro (which is more or less a blend of the other two. No experience with the rest (Reason, Bitwig, FL Studio, etc.) so can't offer any insights.

Looking to spend $200 or less with free updates for eternity if possible.

Not going to happen, I think. Not with Cubase, not with Ableton. Every new version is a paid upgrade.
Except for Logic Pro, I believe, that's 239 euro (don't know how much that is in Canadian) but I think all further upgrades are free. And there's Reaper, tried it once, and erased it after 15 minutes, but that's 60 euros for a full licence.

If that $200 is Canadian, then Reaper is your only choice. Or use Garageband, which is Logic Pro 'Lite' (but very 'lite' then), or Cubase Elements, or Ableton Live Intro, both less than 100 euros but they are rather limited (check out their websites to compare the different versions).

Of course, there are other DAWs that might be cheaper but I don't know anything about those. And there's also Studio One from Presonus, which has a free version (not time limited, it's not a trial, but also with limited functionality) and also a pro version, but more interestingly they have a subscription model which gives you the whole suite for a monthly fee.
In any case, choose a DAW that not only sounds good but also looks good since you'll be looking at it a lot (Reaper is a big no-no for me in that department).

If you use a particular Apple DAW, please tell us which one and why you consider it to be the best choice.

For the moment, I can't decide between Cubase and Ableton. I have Cubase 12 Artist version, sort of the middle ground, and Ableton Live Lite (which came bundled with my Novation controller) but I might fork out for Ableton Standard or Suite and use both for a while

 

[mris]

A similair DAW for cakewalk (sonar) is bandlab.
If you have a license for'a cakewalk'product such as Sonar 1,2 or 3 then you can get a free download.
( i'hope'you can still get it'today)
FYI i switched to bandlab in 2018 and this year on jan 4th 2023 i'got another free renewal for one year.
I don't know if this software will run on MAC
so good luck and stay save.
mris

 

[Kaneda]

...bandlab.
...
I don't know if this software will run on MAC

Nope...

 

[mris]

thank you and good to know if I have to change in the future.
Still using win 7 for music and Linux for all the rest.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

If you prefer to stick with something free (as BandLab is), you might want to check out Waveform Free from Tracktion:

Waveform Free audio editing software - mac, pc, linux - Tracktion Software

The world's best, fully featured, completely unlimited free DAW for all music creators.

www.tracktion.com

They also have a paid version, as well as a bundled version (if they still do that the way they used to). Waveform (formerly called Tracktion) is different than most other DAWs in that the free version isn't a lite version, but is instead the full version from a couple of updates back. That is,

• paid version = latest update with all of the newest features,
• bundled version = one update back, and
• free version = two updates back.

And with each new update, you can upgrade your free version to the next update, such that eventually you'll be using today's paid version for free, you'll just always be two updates back from the newest updates.

Edit: Yes, they do still have an OEM or bundled version:

Compare Waveform Versions - Tracktion Software

Creative tools for creative minds. Tracktion provides innovative software production tools for musicians, composers and songwriters.

www.tracktion.com

One nice thing about Waveform is that it doesn't filter out and ignore SysEx the way some other DAWs do.

Also, it lets you bring your own plugins rather than restricting you to a limited selection of the company's plugins the way some free DAWs do.

And it lets you create your own instrument definitions or patch lists, and I believe it recognizes Cakewalk's patch list format, so you might be able to import your existing patch lists that you're using in BandLab.

 

[anotherscott]

Logic Pro is the main DAW, it is an Apple product.

Then there is Mainstage which integrates with Logic Pro and it can be used as a stand alone, it does come with 6Gb of VST’s. I understand it is the defacto standard by touring or gigging musicians.

Logic Pro and Mainstage are separate programs, but come with pretty much the same sound library. As for the integration, it basically means they can use each other's sounds, e.g. sounds that you create in either one can be used in the other. (Described at https://www.macprovideo.com/article...nstage-making-the-most-out-of-the-partnership ) But in effect, Logic is a DAW, Mainstage is a live performance environment, so they have different purposes. Good summary at https://brianli.com/the-difference-between-logic-pro-and-mainstage/

As for the sound library, technically, they're not VSTs, they are Apple's equivalent, AU. Most if not all of the major plug-ins are available in either format. But that could still be something to consider. Most DAWs on the Mac support either format, but there are exceptions... Logic only supports AU, Cubase only supports VST. Which kind of makes sense, since Logic and AU are both Apple's IP, while Cubase and VST are both Yamaha/Steinberg IP... while the other DAW developers don't have a horse in that race.

 

[Kaneda]

As for the sound library, technically, they're not VSTs, they are Apple's equivalent, AU. Most if not all of the major plug-ins are available in either format. But that could still be something to consider. Most DAWs on the Mac support either format, but there are exceptions... Logic only supports AU, Cubase only supports VST. Which kind of makes sense, since Logic and AU are both Apple's IP, while Cubase and VST are both Yamaha/Steinberg IP... while the other DAW developers don't have a horse in that race.

Cubase's plug-ins (Halion Sonic, Groove Agent, Padshop, Retrologue...) are available in Garageband/Logic Pro, but Apple's plugins are not available in Cubase, I can confirm this.
On the other hand, in Ableton Live, you have access to all of them.

 

[anotherscott]

Cubase's plug-ins (Halion Sonic, Groove Agent, Padshop, Retrologue...) are available in Garageband/Logic Pro, but Apple's plugins are not available in Cubase, I can confirm this.

The reason those plugins are available in Logic is that they are available in AU format (as most Mac VSTs are). Logic does not recognize VSTs, Cubase does not recognize AUs, but most plug-ins on Mac are available in both formats (Apple's own AUs being an exception, they do not make VST versions of those). It is uncommon that a Mac VST is not also available in AU format, the developers obviously want their products to work on Logic, it is a large potential customer base (as you have brought up, even Yamaha/Steinberg's plug-ins are available for their competitor's platform). But it is not impossible that someone could run into some old VST that has no AU version.

(Disclaimer: I don't use these things myself, so I don't have the first-hand knowledge here that I have regarding most of the things I talk about.)

 

[happyrat1]

I'm getting terrific feedback here guys.

Keep it going...

This is not a trivial decision I have to make.

Gary

 

[happyrat1]

The reason those plugins are available in Logic is that they are available in AU format (as most Mac VSTs are). Logic does not recognize VSTs, Cubase does not recognize AUs, but most plug-ins on Mac are available in both formats (Apple's own AUs being an exception, they do not make VST versions of those). It is uncommon that a Mac VST is not also available in AU format, the developers obviously want their products to work on Logic, it is a large potential customer base (as you have brought up, even Yamaha/Steinberg's plug-ins are available for their competitor's platform). But it is not impossible that someone could run into some old VST that has no AU version.

(Disclaimer: I don't use these things myself, so I don't have the first-hand knowledge here that I have regarding most of the things I talk about.)

Ya know, I'm kind of getting away from the whole open source, public domain thing here and trying to create a licensable, legal studio.

From what I've seen perusing specs this morning Logic comes with free updates and over 5000 virtual instruments as well.

From what I've also read, it's been used to score a couple of Marvel films as well and the price is among the most reasonable of the bunch.

My main concern though, is scoring and sequencing a boatload of hardware. Sort of a mini JP Jarre kind of deal.

The more I learn about it, the more I'm leaning that way.

Any particular obstacles in this area?

Gary

EVERYONE WHO REPLIED SO FAR:

THANKS A MILLION!!!!!!

 

[Biggles]

I would suggest that 16Gb RAM & a 1Tb SSD would serve you better.

Wife’s iMac is a 27” 5k which we upgraded to 16Gb RAM and to a hybrid drive.

10 years old, rock solid and it has edited a lot of video with ease.

One aspect that you will need to research further is with Apples’s MIDI connectivity, it does not (or if it does now I am unaware of it) have plug and play capabilities.

There is an inbuilt Utility that is used to configure the routing, for me it was not intuitive.

The Roland A500 that I had caused problems but a guy over on another forum who gigs with one and his mac laptop gave me chapter and verse on how to set it up.

 

[anotherscott]

True that Apple's "Audio MIDI Setup" screen is not great... but still simpler to deal with than ASIO4ALL on Windows.

 

[happyrat1]

Lord, the more I learn about Apple the more I feel like I'm joining Scientology

Logic pro seems to be the logical choice (pun intended)

Now my head is agog with the peripheral prices

And to top it off the M2 must be brand new because all the reviews are only a couple of months old.

My plan is to forge ahead, buy all the necessary crap, see if it all works plugged in, and trade in the mini for the mac studio if it chokes.

I'm bound to make this work even if it kills me.

Wish me luck!!!

Gary

 

[Biggles]

M2 is pretty new, my two year old iPad Pro has the M1.

BTW, it has 500Gb storage of which I have used 350Gb, so really for you a 1Tb is a must have.

During lockdown with little to do I went on the Apple site and configured a Mac Pro, I did not select all and it came out mega bucks, just now £51, 848.

 

[Kaneda]

The M2 has been out for a couple of months now, the first M2 Pro macs have just been released. It's an evolution of M1, not so much a revolution (which the switch from Intel to Apple silicon more or less was).

Bought a M1 Pro Macbook, and compared to my previous Intel Core i7 MB Pro, it's night and day.
You can't really compare the Unified Memory of the new M1/M2 Macs with the Intel ones. The internal SSD on those new Macs is practically just as fast as the RAM so you would hardly notice it if there was some memory swapping going on, which will happen rather sooner than later if you only have 8Gb of RAM. That means that it helps if you have lots of free space on your SSD, which is rather unlikely with only 512Gb. Moreover, all that swapping is not really beneficial to your SSD in the long run.
Also, a 1TB SSD will be faster than a 512Gb one (with M2, the 512Gb uses 2 nand chips, the 1Tb SSD uses four, so the more the merrier - I won't go into the technical details).

So, I would also definitely recommend at least 1Tb SSD and 16 Gb of RAM. I'd recommend keeping around 25 to 30% of free space on your SSD at any time. So perhaps get a fast external SSD for your plugins as your library grows over time
The M1 Pro in my MB Pro is mighty fast (with the M1 Max and Ultra being even more impressive). I got 32Gb of RAM because I also use my Mac for graphic design and a load of other stuff. And I would have been ok with 16Gb but there's always a little voice in my head telling me I should go that extra mile

I took the liberty of configuring a Mac Mini with M2 Pro and the Mac Studio with the M1 Max, the studio is the base configuration, the Mini is the top of the line M2 Pro. The Mini comes with 16Gb as standard and 512Gb SSD so I upped that to 1Tb SSD ; the Studio comes with 32Gb of RAM as standard, as well as with a 1Tb SSD. Prices include Logic Pro.
Mini, M2 Pro, 16Gb of RAM, 1Tb SSD, Logic Pro : $2228 CAN (add $500 to take it up to 32Gb of RAM)
Studio, M1 Max, 32Gb of RAM, 1 Tb SSD, Logic Pro : $3028 CAN

The thing is, that studio M1 Max isn't going to be much faster than the new M2 Pro according to benchmarks. However, the Studio is a 'pro' system, meaning better cooling and I believe a better 'workhorse' than the 'consumer' Mini.
It's not because the M2 Mini is newer that you should discount the M1 Studio and worry about future proofing.
You can't go wrong with either but if you could get the Studio M1 Max for a lower price, I'd go for it. Apple or authorised resellers are discounting their M1 stock, so you might get lucky.
Also keep in mind that you cannot add extra RAM or upgrade the SSD afterwards, so what you buy is what you'll have to use for a long time. Luckily, Macs last forever. I've been a Mac user since 1999 and I've never looked back

 

[OldTimerBill]

A DAW to consider (if it has already been mentioned, I missed it) that would be within your budget is Reaper. You can download it for free and use it as long as you want to. If you decide to purchase it, the non-commercial license is $60. It is highly configurable but, on the downside, it doesn’t come with vst instruments.

 

[mris]

If you prefer to stick with something free (as BandLab is), you might want to check out Waveform Free from Tracktion:

Waveform Free audio editing software - mac, pc, linux - Tracktion Software

The world's best, fully featured, completely unlimited free DAW for all music creators.

www.tracktion.com

They also have a paid version, as well as a bundled version (if they still do that the way they used to). Waveform (formerly called Tracktion) is different than most other DAWs in that the free version isn't a lite version, but is instead the full version from a couple of updates back. That is,

• paid version = latest update with all of the newest features,
• bundled version = one update back, and
• free version = two updates back.

And with each new update, you can upgrade your free version to the next update, such that eventually you'll be using today's paid version for free, you'll just always be two updates back from the newest updates.

Edit: Yes, they do still have an OEM or bundled version:

Compare Waveform Versions - Tracktion Software

Creative tools for creative minds. Tracktion provides innovative software production tools for musicians, composers and songwriters.

www.tracktion.com

One nice thing about Waveform is that it doesn't filter out and ignore SysEx the way some other DAWs do.

Also, it lets you bring your own plugins rather than restricting you to a limited selection of the company's plugins the way some free DAWs do.

And it lets you create your own instrument definitions or patch lists, and I believe it recognizes Cakewalk's patch list format, so you might be able to import your existing patch lists that you're using in BandLab.

Hi
Thanks for the info
As singer song rewriter I'switched to Band in a box after the Sonar/Bandlab adventure. (no possibility to print scores)
With this software I can record like in a DAW and print out the scores
I'll take a look in the wave pad.
stay save

 

[Sigurd]

Logic Pro is the obvious choice as it is an Apple product. You pay $200 and have lifetime free updates. I’ve used it over 10 years and it is rock solid. Also gives you MainStage which is a good live performance program.