How do I play this chord?

[Rayblewit]

Bb9#5

I do not know the formula
I tried playing a substitute Bb . . It does not sound good!
Any other substitutes anyone can recommend?
Song = "I'll Be Seeing You"

Many thanks
Ray

 

[SeaGtGruff]

Bb scale is Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb.

Those notes are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8, respectively.

For numbers over 8, you can subtract 7-- for instance, 8 is the octave of 1, so 9 is the octave of 2.

So Bb9 would be Bb with a C.

#5 means you move the 5th note up a half-step, so the F becomes an F#.

So I would try playing Bb, C, F#.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I think technically you're supposed to play the full Bb chord and then add the others, so the internet says that this should be played as Bb, D, F#, Ab, C. Those are 1, 3, #5, b7, 9.

Bbaug9 Piano Chord

www.scales-chords.com

When you go over 8, it's common to omit 7 from the name of the chord, but it's assumed that you include the 7-- except that in a normal 7th chord, the 7th is actually flatted or minor, since using the non-flatted 7th makes it a Major 7th chord.

Bb, D, F = 1, 3, 5
Bb, D, F# = 1, 3, #5
Bb, D, F#, Ab = 1, 3, #5, b7
Bb, D, F#, Ab, C = 1, 3, #5, b7, 9

 

[CowboyNQ]

Nearly Michael.

What you're referring to is a dominant 7th, not a minor 7th, although you've named the note correctly which is the important thing. This is worth pointing out as the term minor 7th indicates a flattened third, which makes it an entirely different proposition.

Ray - the reason you're struggling is if you play a Bb the natural 5th (F) will clash very badly with the #5 (F#) in the melody.

I haven't got my keyboard out but you could probably voice this one without the 9th and it would still sound OK as long as you get the dominant 7th. Maybe try to voice it Bb, D and Ab in the left hand (with Bb being the lowest note) and see if you like that.

This being said - if we're talking auto accompaniment I can't help much as I have no idea how that works.

EDIT: I'm not at all familiar with this song but I might drag my keyboard out and see if I can come up with something for you - the above just off the top of my head, I'm far from an expert at this kind of thing!

EDIT 2: Ok had a quick blast through of it, I think my voicing flies OK although it's a little muddy so you could also take the Bb and put it on top, so the voicing would be D, Ab, Bb with the D being the lowest note. The #5th and the 9th are carried by the melody so it still sounds ok if you omit them from the left hand.

Thinking a bit more deeply about using ACMP - if you're doing that whatever weird combination of notes you need to play to get a Bbaug7 should fit the bill here.

Have fun mate and PM me if I've totally confused you.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I'm sorry for the confusion, but I wasn't referring the chord as a minor 7th chord; I couldn't think of "a dominant 7th chord" at the time, so I called it "a normal 7th chord" since it's the one with just a 7 in its abbreviation (Bb7), in contrast to a minor 7th chord (Bbm7) and Major 7th chord (BbM7). When I said "the 7th is actually flatted or minor," I meant the note by itself, or the interval from the root-- a minor 7th interval versus a major 7th interval. I wrote it "b7" because I'd already said that note 7 (the 7th degree) of the Bb scale is an A, and the Bb9#5 chord uses the Ab or flatted 7th rather than the 7th degree of the scale.

 

[Rayblewit]

I'm not at all familiar with this song

It is a very old tune from the 30's 40's era. Nothing like "Another Brick . . ." LOL.
It is a beautiful tune. I think Vera Lynn sang it to the troops during WW2. She had a gorgeous voice.

Anyway, that chord is relevant for one whole bar of a slow tempo. So is important I get it sounding right.
I will try the combination as suggested later today. Thanks heaps Paul and Michael.

Ray

 

[Rayblewit]

This is the version I am playing at this tempo.

Bert doesn't do it as good as me . . Hehe

 

[Rayblewit]

Maybe try to voice it Bb, D and Ab

This works okay . . actually that combo is Bb7
It does sound much better than Bb alone.

I experimented with some other options as suggested by Gruff. They work okay, however I decided to play the Bb7 and I wrote that above my staff for future reference.

I have got it sounding pretty good (I reckon)

Thanks much you guys

Ray

 

[CowboyNQ]

Good stuff Ray,

In isolation, those three notes are indeed a Bb7 (minus the fifth). The reason I'm leaving the fifth out is because it clashes with the #5th (F#). The melody also gives you the 9th (C). In this way you are achieving Bb9#5.

When I played it, it sounded nicer with the Bb just below middle C as the top note, it got a bit ugly playing the Bb and D the octave below. But I'm guessing you're using an accompaniment aid which changes the game somewhat. As I said, if your keyboard supports Bbaug7 using an accompaniment aid, that will give you your best outcome as it incorporates the #5.

Glad it worked for you mate.

 

[Rayblewit]

I am using ACMP.
So I can play the chord as an inversion. I am very familiar with Bb and 7th major and minor.

As I said, if your keyboard supports Bbaug7 using an accompaniment aid, that will give you your best outcome as it incorporates the #5.

I need to explore this further. .
That is my lockdown homework.

Cheers mate

 

[Biggles]

I had a play of that part of the song last night and it is possible to play the whole five notes of the chord with the left hand and still leave the keys from C4 to the right free for the melody line.

I am unsure of how your S650 is set up to trigger ACMP but would have thought that any chord played to the left of the split point with trigger the ACMP hence if the whole chord is not played the ACMP will not use it, it will use whatever the key combination is played instead.

Just to clarify, with an Arranger the chord sensing zone is to the left of the split point, it can be set up to operate over the whole keyboard but this is not the default. It is the playing of the chord that the ACMP feature recognises and plays backing to suit until such a time as the next chord is played.

I differ to what is suggested by Paul in that the melody line notes Do Not form part of the chord, they are not likely to be within the ACMP sensing zone for the reasons outlined.

 

[CowboyNQ]

I differ to what is suggested by Paul in that the melody line notes Do Not form part of the chord, they are not likely to be within the ACMP sensing zone for the reasons outlined.

To be clear mate - I was not giving the advice with ACMP in mind. I was thinking about the overall chord voicing when playing the melody line with a simple chord in the left hand. I had a crack on my ‘board at home and it came up trumps.

As I will say for the third time - if Ray can finagle a Bb+7 with ACMP (no idea what notes he’d have to play) he’ll get the desired result as the 9th sits in the melody. I assume ACMP doesn’t deal in 9ths.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I differ to what is suggested by Paul in that the melody line notes Do Not form part of the chord, they are not likely to be within the ACMP sensing zone

I'm not sure which model Ray has, but it likely includes the "full keyboard" chord-detection method that uses the full width of the keyboard for detecting which ACMP chord to use. That might or might not detect this particular chord correctly.

 

[Biggles]

Michael / Paul

Ray has a PSR S650 if memory serves me correctly and I am only referring to using the keyboard with ACMP turned on and full Arranger mode.

With ACMP turned on the chord detection range of the keyboard is only to the left of the Split Point (default if F#2) and not over the whole keybed and page 30 of the manual refers to this.

We need to be in Arranger mindset mode as the 9th C in the melody line will have zero effect in the chord detection zone and hence it does not form part of the chord in terms of ACMP detection.

Now to me the issue is what the S650 will actually detect! It should display the chord name of what is played within the detection zone and it would be interesting to see if the keyboard does indeed actually detect this chord. According to the somewhat limited manual chords involving a 9th can be detected but there is probably a limitation of the OS in achieving this. In other words if Ray plays the full chord in the left split and what the keyboard detects and actually plays backing for could be a completely different chord.

Edit
One thing I do not know is just how Ray triggers ACMP, there are different modes available and perhaps even an AI version. Hence what chord can be detected my very well be limited in which case it is what chord fits the song that will actually be detected using Ray’s LH playing method.

 

[CowboyNQ]

We need to be in Arranger mindset mode as the 9th C in the melody line will have zero effect in the chord detection zone and hence it does not form part of the chord in terms of ACMP detection.

Yes this was my exact point.

I’m conscious of the fact that the melody in the RH will probably not be detected by ACMP.

Which is exactly why I’m saying if Ray can trigger Bb+7 in the ACMP, the 9th comes from the melody, so you can get away without it. What I’m discussing is the overall sound of the chord in the song - whether it’s triggered by ACMP or the right hand is completely irrelevant. What’s relevant is does it sound as intended.

Another way of explaining it is to say forget Bb9#5 and just play Bb+7. It will work. It does work.

 

[Rayblewit]

Col,

. . . still leave the keys from C4 to the right free for the melody line.

I am playing ACMP with PSR S 650
My split point is way to the left of C4

any chord played to the left of the split point with trigger the ACMP

Yes and I played the 3 sharp keys and 2 Majors as Michael's post showed me (see above his second reply)
My keyboard recognized it as Ab7#11
I played this and it sounded off! I played the Bb7 and it sounded okay!
My problem is settled

I assume ACMP doesn’t deal in 9ths.

I tried a few different 9ths from my chord chart and the KB recognized them as something else
for example C9 = B Bb D E . . . . My KB says that is Gm6. (That is close enough for me).

Thanks everyone for good advice.
I am happy now and my song is playing a gem!

Ray

 

[CowboyNQ]

Thanks everyone for good advice.
I am happy now and my song is playing a gem!

And that’s the main thing!

 

[Trooplewis]

This is the version I am playing at this tempo.

Bert doesn't do it as good as me . . Hehe

Nice song, I'd kinda like to hear your version. DO you have it posted online somewhere?

 

[Rayblewit]

I'd kinda like to hear your version.

Sorry but I do not have the recording capability.
One day I will do it . .

 

[GeraldR]

"the natural 5th (F) will clash very badly with the #5 (F#) in the melody" - That's what you'd think but there are some tunes that use a high note outside of the chordal notes for dramatic effect and/or put over an unlikely resolution. The Vera Lynn version of this song is really interesting because she puts across notes that might not normally be there with the sheer power of her voice. There is a similar note in 'We'll Meet Again'. Keyboards chop up the scale into discrete intervals which somewhat limits what's possible. I can only approximate some guitar riffs where the player uses a falling or rising bend (possibly portamento on a synth?). On keyboards, one uses falling up or falling down, typically from a black key onto a white but one can (only) watch some well known jazz players who can blead several notes together. Of course vocalists like guitarists can put the notes wherever they want. I've noticed that some transcribers of music include the melody note in the chord annotation, perhaps for the benefit of those that play chordaly (thanks for that word Carol Kaye) while others only annotate the accompaniment. A common 'technique', especially on tonewheel keyboards. is to slap a patch of keys with the left hand - try to annotate that! Try playing Patsy Cline's 'Crazy' accurately where they 'auto-tuned' parts of the piano and vocal parts by manually dragging the tape speed.