Is PC3 or 361 for Me?

[marku70]

New to forum - I play some cover bands, some gigs, blues jams and want to upgrade my current budget setup. My main interest is good piano, EP, and B-3 emulation sounds. My current setup is SP88 (bottom for pianos and LH org) and XP-30 with 60/70s card. Midi for deep purple ect. This gets job done at times, lacking at times, and not inspiring anymore.

In bunch of utube and forum lurking on issue I am interesting in the PC-3 or maybe PC361. It seems the rotary has been upgraded and what I hear of B-3 and piano, EP, it sounds good and I am hoping big step up (heard one live and pianos great but also might have been his nice amp also). I am a bit put off by large PC-3 user manual as I have limited TIME and effects programming experience with my XP-30, SP88, and older WK-3000 (yes built on budget over years but kids are moving out soon/$$, will retire soon/time!)

Unfortunately nearest dealer is about 3 hour distance and my old school side says for $3k I need to at least play one. At GC I tried Nord 3 and in some ways did not like some sounds. I like the fact that PC-3 sounds like swiss army knife. So many features in addtion to focus of this post.

I thought I'd get opinions/advice/confirmation on few main things about the purchase and which PC model and some other interests.I assume PC3X, 3 and 361 all have the same sounds and capability and I am not interested in LEs as I want the KB3 drawbars.

1- Looks like PC361 would have great organ keypad but if I midi PC361 pianos to SP88 the SP88 does NOT have aftertouch keypad. Am I correct that I would lose a lot of the piano sound and feel (say in particular for home playing softer stuff)? But, if there would not be much lost I also have old JV unit that I could also midi in some of the 60/70s to the PC-3 [a couple of the particular organ dupes are unique)
2- If I get the PC3 it would replace the SP88 for piano keypad (also semi-weighted work ok for LH organ) and I could midi up to the Roland XP-30 as controller for KB-3; but would I lose the ability to control drawbars and effects in PC3 while playing on the XP-30?
3- Overdrive – I have been all over utube and PC3 KB3 sounds seem good but I have been unable to find examples with overdrive or the couple I found just sound too messy. I would really love to have just a bit of that B-3 grunge and not sure how they have emulated that with the rotary (saw in manual “slight” effect). Anyone know where some good utube examples of that are? Always leery of effect overdrive for Hammond as most jump from nothing to shred and are not natural at low settings.
4- I have an open mind on other brands but from what I have read not sure what would work as I like the idea of drawbars, good B-3 emulation, and pianos most seem to rate as “great or good” in one package. (In band mix IMO Kurz pianos seem to shine).

Interesting in reading reviews there are so many lauding the improvements that got me so excited. Then I saw a couple (minority) from strictly “players” that talked about they hate complicated programming and said sounds were not that much improved and still not gig friendly boards. I’m hoping the upgrade in sounds if worth the $price.

Thanks in advance for any advice! Sorry if the questions above are so basic but admit I am more of just a player than programmer with limited experience to this point (just have limited time available – turning down some gigs these days so until I can retire might not have much time for programming).

 

[Oyst3h]

PC3 (and PC361, PC3X) are no longer current - you may still find stock at some stores, but they were replaced by PC3K series a while back (which adds sampling).

By modern standards, the pianos in PC3 series are quite limited, but - as you say - they work pretty well in a live environment.

Pianos don't respond to aftertouch, so using a weighted controller with no aftertouch to control a PC3 piano program will work just fine, although a lot of the other sounds on the PC3 do have aftertouch.

You can create a "Setup" using multiple "programs" (up to 16) on the PC3. However, only one program in a Setup can be a KB3 sound, which may or may not be a problem for you - e.g. you can't have two different KB3 programs split between LH and RH to simulate different registrations on lower and upper manuals. However, you CAN choose whether or not the sliders on the PC3 control the drawbars on the KB3 program. So you could certainly use an external MIDI controller to play KB3 sounds and still use the drawbar sliders.

The PC3 organ sounds are (IMHO) pretty good, including the Rotary Speaker sim and the overdrive - and they're noticeably better with the V2.00 firmware update. It is certainly possible to get a decent overdriven organ sound without sounding like its going through a fuzz box. Don't know of any particularly good examples on Youtube, though.

The manual is hugely daunting. Accessibility is not a strength of the PC3! You should expect to take a while to get to know it if you want to get the best out of it.

As far as other brands go, It's hard to make suggestions with no hint as to budget
The Korg Kronos pretty much does everything better than the PC3
Roland Jupiter 50/80 also
Nord Electro is the other obvious candidate for a single board to cover Piano, EP and B3.
All are significantly more expensive than the PC3, though.

 

[marku70]

Thanks Oyst3h,
As far as budget, I have not done a lot of detail but seems the PC3k are in the $2k to $3k range and that was about the budget I had in mind. The Nord seem to be in that range but not sure about them. I did try one at GC but would need more time with it. Those others [maybe basic models?] seem like in similar price range upon quick google. I'll have to do some research on those. I guess maybe the discontinued PC3 might be a bit less. I do like the ideas of drawbars.

 

[Oyst3h]

I got a PC361 just a few months ago for $1,000. At that price it was an absolute bargain.
If you can find a PC3 for that kind of money, I would definitely say go for it - Ebay is probably you're best bet, though as I think all the big online stores have probably sold all their stock by now. You might find one in a local music store if you're lucky.

If you're looking at a new PC3K, then it's much less tempting, imho. It's basically the same sounds as the PC3 for quite a lot more money.
The Korg Kronos is the most advanced keyboard out there right now. It has much bigger sample sets than the PC3K, and you can map the sliders on the front panel to control the B3 drawbars in organ mode. If that's within your budget, you'll probably end up feeling disappointed if you buy anything else.

 

[marku70]

That sounds like a steal for $1000! Sounds are a main thing for me..

 

[marku70]

I did some shopping around and it looks like most left are B stock or dent and scratch, most with warranty. Interesting that PC361 seems to go for about $1350 and PC3 not as many but one now avaiable maybe less than a PC 361 I think on an offer basis. I am thinking I could go either way on PC3 VS PC361 to mix with either my Roland or SP-88 from what you pointed out and come away with semi-weighted keys on bottom and non-weighted on top.

But my guess is that key pad on PC3 might play noticeably better than my old SP88 from feedback online (although that is personal I guess) and since I am fine with my Roland key feel I thinking that PC 3 might be way to go (I sometimes use those way upper keys on 88 maybe that 76 can be shifted to work). I don't want the instrument weight of weighted key PCx. In the other hand it might be nice to have the drawbars on the same keyboard as with the PC361. Tough choice for me cause of that.

Would you happen to know if PC3 keypad will be nice step up from my older Fatar on my SP-88?

Regarding the Korg - If I can get PC3 about $1,150 I am thinking not worth the extra for me as the KB-3 is a major upgrade goal of mine and I am sort of a banger with the rock blues I play on the piano live and PC3 might make me happy. I'm thinking that you are also much more experienced synth pro than I so the Korg might be a larger jump ahead for you than what I might experience (that's a big price difference).

Thanks for feedback above and I welcome any thought on my PC3 Vs 361 choice. I'll probably make an offer tomorrow or soon - probably a good move either way. [There is almost too much information/opinions out there on all the brand choices to have time to get through it!]

 

[delaware dave]

You missed this by a day.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kurzweil-PC...4195875?pt=Keyboards_MIDI&hash=item4d03adaea3

Maybe you can contact the seller directly and strike a deal.

 

[marku70]

DD,
Thanks for sending tip; yes there was another PC3 B stock I just missed (final price was $1189 plus $85 ship) but as it turns out I ended up buying a used PC361 from GC yesterday for $999 from distant store. Yeah I know- from what I read I am Johnny come lately on getting new one for same price early this year I guess. They said it was in excellent shape. I sort of like the idea of having 30 days to return if not in good shape or my liking. I figure I can midi the PC361 down to my SP88 for piano work and am excited to get the PC361. I hope I like it. I held out for PC3 rather than all the LE out there as main point to be is getting the drawbars for KB3.

From what I have read I need to make sure to dowload the latest OS if not onboard (buy any typical USB cable I guess). Went to Kurz site and got manual. From other posts looks like there is some sort of forums where folks share sounds and it was not clear to me if the editing software is free (seems like sonic charges). I am also lookin at tutorials on utube but quite frankly a lot of those above my head. I just want to get into the effects editing off the bat to get those deep purple sounds going for live playing and maybe the rest will come later when I get some time with that huge manual. Probably won't have it yet for gig this weekend.

If you can send any of your fav. links on resources to share sounds and learn about how to use this thing that would be great (I'll keep looking). That manual seems complex but maybe I just need some synthesizer for dummies training. I wish these manuals just gave more example steps in simple english. I have some minor experince from dinking with my Casio, Roland XP-30, and SP88 over the years but that is mainly only light editing effects and layersing to save performances. This PC361 seems more complex.

Sounds corny but I wish it had the preset Rythyms like my old Casio - looks Like you have to play in the drum patterns. My son and I jam a lot and nice to have complete drum rhthms going at touch of button. I might be wrong on that but will not be as easy on PC361.

 

[delaware dave]

Using an xD card is actually easier than the USB to USB cable but the USB will work as well.

OS updates are free. Download them off the Kurz site. Latest is 2.10. Takes under 10 minutes to update. 2.10 has nice upgrade features including a new leslie. There is no comparison between the old leslie and the new leslie. The new leslie blows the old leslie away. After upgrading the OS check out programs like 896 (big leslie).

Sites to checkout:
http://forum.sonikmatter.com/forums/index.php/forum/83-pcxx-series/
http://ksetlist.com/index.php

Editing software (soundtower) is free for PC3 series. So you can install that on your pc as well. LE series has a sonic fee but not PC3 series.

Check out these tuturials:
http://kurzweil.com/product/pc361/video/

The pianos are an endless source of debate. They are steinway based, so they don't have that bright yamaha sound. I like them but some don't because they are not as bright as the yamaha. Check out program 842 (pro piano). It is a little brighter and fuller than the others. Kurz's attempt to scratch the yamaha itch. It also is in the new operating system.

You made a great choice. Their orchestral sounds are world class. Also, their technical support is also world class.

 

[Alucard]

actually, If anyone is still interested, I just noticed the seller relisted the PC3, here's the link

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330775602670#ht_639wt_1271

 

[marku70]

Dave,
Thanks much for the tips. I'll have to get a card and may as well pick up USB cable for couple bucks. I'm going to download the update for sure as leslie is big to me [might not have been loaded by PO as I am told this unit was in shop for couple months]. I'll have to check out soundtower I must have misread the info there about purchase. UPS says delivery Friday so I might have it for gig Saturday. Regarding piano's I jammed for while with group with other Yamaha keys player using more $$ unit than my old SP88 and expected to be embarrased by my pianos but for rock blues that we did SP88 cut through mix and I thought did very well. My impression is that Yama pianos may sound more realistic for classical and solo (better acoutic type tone) but even my dated SP88 piano did ok in that rock/blues setting (I play through KC-550 and he had differnet setup). I am expecting these PC361 pianos will be big step up from my dated SP88. Also want to check out the EPs. The drawbars will be fun (I have small hammond at home).

I haven't had much time to play lately other than occasional gigs I get asked to sit on but I could see myself getting inspired to play more at home and dig into the sounds and get my chops up. I am almost feeling like I might even look in to another amp becasue while back I heard PC3X at concert and those pianos sounded great and had nice brightness. Kc-550 might be limitation there - but one step at a time.

Thanks again for tips.

 

[delaware dave]

Even if you get the keyboard on saturday you will be able to use it saturday night. Kurzweil programs and setups already delivered with the keyboard need minimal tweaking. I play classic rock so hammond, Rhodes, Wurli, acoustic piano and clav are my go to instruments. also strings, brass and sax. covers 95% of everything i need over a course of a night

Piano: start with program # 842, go into the effects and remove the "compressor". it will open up the piano considerably.
Rhodes: programs 18-20 should work OK. i think 20 is a dyno rhodes. whole bunch there.
Wurli: can't remember the program number but should come right after the rhodes patches
B3: start at program 49 (picture of nectar) and work your way through the mid 50's or so. also 896 and 897. note how the leslie speeds are engaged slow/fast (most with a sustain pedal) and of course the button in the top left corner of the keyboard. the sustain pedal trigger can be changed. i changed mine to use the pedal connected to the sust jack and connected a separate sustain pedal to that jack. push down, leslie speeds up, push down again, leslie moves to slow. Most of the leslie ramp/speeds are too quick (as compared to a 122); they ramp up/down unrealistically. you will want to slow down the ramp up/downs and the leslie will sound more realistic. since the new leslie is a "double leslie" (soundwise it sounds very good) you will need to adjust the ramp speeds on both leslies in the effects chain.

Check out this link:

http://forum.sonikmatter.com/forums/index.php/topic/48413-big-fat-spinning-hammond-sound/

i spent a ton of time (many many hours) adjusting the double leslie in order to get it to sound more Neo Vent-ish. It is still not quite there but it is pretty darn close. It's a long thread and most of the thread is me typing. read it carefully then when you get some time start fooling with the leslie settings based on some of the recommendations made in that thread.

In the operating system download there are a bunch of PDF files. One of the PDFs is pc3 v2 programs pdf. In that file is the list of the programs delivered with the PC3. check that out before you get the keyboard. read through it and this will give you an idea of some of the programs delivered with the pc3. this way once you get the keyboard and perform the OS upgrade you can go straight to these programs and listen to them. Also another great feature is QA mode. QA mode allows you to create a bank of programs/setups and put up to 10 of these "favorites' into a quick access bank. this way your 10 favorite programs/setups are at your instant disposal. i strictly run straight out of qa mode during a gig since all the programs i need for 95% of what i do are in one qa bank and staring me in the face all night. this way you don't have to remember programs/setup numbers.

you should be good to go on saturday night, really .....

 

[marku70]

super tips dave. I am going to get a USB cord and already have 2.10 downloaded so expect that will be an easy install to get me up to speed with good leslies at hand. (not any time outside of work!) Ironically, I could not get the pedal to operate the leslie on my Xp-30 (frustrating) so I expect that my Kurz sustain pedal with SP88 (different model than listed for PC361 manual) should work fine as you suggest or one of my other cheepo pedals as manual said most work. I sort of think like you. Get the main things handy and play. I figure if I could get my main sounds in favorites and play with leslie and reverb a bit with those I'd be ready to go. I had set up a bunch of midi programs/split for Hush, Lazy and lot of other songs using 60/70 XP-30 to SP88 as lower board and I would think not too tough to do that with CP361 (I am not expericned like yourself so after so much time since midi setpups I'll have to sort of relearn that: ). I just need to start playing regular so this CP361 may just be the ticket..

 

[marku70]

Dave,

Got the PC361 about noon today. Not bad came in 3 days. It says that 2.10 is installed on boot so saves me that .

Working from home today and got distracted as I had to try it. First impression of pianos was bad but then I realized it was coming through volume pedal so when I removed pedal direct to amp sounded much better. I like the piano variety but frankly not sure I like better than my SP-88 so I think I need to go into effects and play with reverb ?? odd SP88 pianos are ancient. The KB3 is fun and not sure why someone would want LE without the drawbars. I like how it varies the DB reaction for different programs. At first I was not sure about touch (what you are used to) but it does seem to make me more accurate when playing riffs upward for some reason so like that. bit of sponginess I think actually makes piano playing better than real light keppads but I'll still midi down to SP-88 I think for piano.

I need to figure how to get into the effects asap as I think that pianos need some tweaking and KB3 also (more reverb, way too much perc on some settings for me). For gig I need to figure how to get pedal controlling the leslie (I have 2 Kurz sustain pedals and 2 other cheapo) and not sure if I can pedal control volume with what I have (my Behrigher stereo pedal makes pianos sound muddy so proably not good for other programs either) - bummer for gig. I guess I'll have to pick up an expression pedal or could my second sustain pedal be assigned to volume?

I think I can make transition to this for gig tomorrow if I can get the midi's going and program some favs in for the covers. I wonder if there is way to progam down some mellow KB3 setting to SP88 left hand and have separate KB3 program and drawbar control for PC361 only on top. THought I read there is issues with that although if you send a WARM program to bottom even with drawbard use for top locked also to ottom it might not warp the bottom "Warm" organs that much.

Another thing. I had actually programmed by old Casio to have the distorrtion effect tied to volume level like Jon Lord B3 in Lazy - say like guitar amp gain. Is there a way to do that with effects on this CP361; also run by an expression pedal - or say even the volume slider in short term? Sorry if that is dumb question I am real novice on programming. When I tried some "tube" KB3 programs or heavy distortion one they are obviously same distortion level regardless of volume setting

Right now I am sort of overwhelmed by the array of items and not brave enough to just dive in so hopefully the programming comes easy tonight.

Any shortcut plain english tips are appreciated. (downloaded but did not get to video tutorials or manual yet - I need to go back to work this afternoon - got distracted)

 

[marku70]

Dave,
Sorry about dumb questions above - now that I went and sat back down at it keyboard as glance in the manual and sustain is default to rotary control ect- Thinking I need to get an expression pedal as all I have is switches. I'll just dive into the manual as I have to get those sliders assigend ect. Interesting "flute" and other setting that could make some interesting LH organ sounds.

The instrument numbers seem so random - I need to figure that out. I guess just different logic than I am used to.

 

[delaware dave]

see Private message (conversation) i sent you.

 

[delaware dave]

yamaha FC7 and you'll need the adaptor. read this about the pedal and the adaptor

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Number=322584