Midi controller 88 keys ?

[Keroleen]

Hi,
My guitarist is intent on buying an 88 key weighted key midi controller but he most plays only chords or simple riffs for self recording and he’s intending to use the rig to make patches for an existing workstation and learn to play. Is that too much or something simpler? Apparently there’s a deal somewhere he’s found

For those who either play in a band and/or are intermediate to advanced is it that preferable to have a full 88weighted keyboard? I’m asking as I’m the one usually playing keys and we are playing on 61 keys and since I don’t play classical piano anymore, I have not found myself in situation of not enough keys.
Is a full sized stage piano generally most recommended so you can fall back to classical piano and have the options? Or?

Thanks

 

[happyrat1]

It's not only the tonal range which should be considered but also the feel of the keys.

If your guitarist wants to learn proper piano technique on weighted hammer action keys then that would be the main reason he'd opt for a full 88 controller instead of a 61 or 49.

Personally I think to get maximum enjoyment out of a keyboard I prefer an 88 or a minimum 76 keyboard simply for the feel and the range.

Really it's his money and his decision to make but unless there are significant space limitations on the stage I don't really see any reason why you'd object.

Gary

 

[Biggles]

Best bang for bucks in an 88 key unit is probably a Studiologic SL88.

Check out the reviews.

If he wants to learn piano then yes 88 or 76 weighted keys, if he wants to play keys then 61 or 76 semi weighted will do.

I have tried quite a few 61 key controllers and for keybed feel the Roland A800 was imo the best one so check this one out should your mate consider a 61 key unit.

 

[kgabris]

Hi Keroleen!

I think you should get what you can get, for your bucks. Meaning, that you can buy digital pianos for 3000euros, easily, in a shop. On the other hand, you can get midi controllers on the web (even used), for 100euros, that are (in some opinion) better than the 3000e stuff. Why?

Because midi controllers and digital pianos have a drawback. I recommend you look up what does it mean touch sensitivity.

But that aspect of a digital midi or keyboard is just that it is capable of producing different volumes, unlike a software synth plugin, controlled by mouse.

So, why would that be better? Because if you want a sound sensitivity (that you actually enjoy playing, and can express your emotions), than you need an analogue controller. Digital is always quantized, or phased, or discreet.

Look up what discreet means in mathematics.

So, back to the question, if you have lots of money, you're going to still buy something inferior that you can get much cheaper. But, since the trend is the 3000euro line, you are restricted in your choices.

I'd say get an analogue controller (midi), that works. If it is a little bit faulty, perhaps it's going to be okay by time. If you take care of it.....

So, get an analogue controller, and that is the first aspect of the instrument (product). Then, maybe second aspect is number of keys............ I think you'll understand this

 

[Keroleen]

Thanks for your input. The keyboard is a communal instrument used by a number of us in the group so we all kinda wanna have a say lol
I think he’s looking for used but there is also the risk of overuse and keybeds on the used market.

Loads of useful info folks... thanks

 

[Bernie777]

Hi,
My guitarist is intent on buying an 88 key weighted key midi controller but he most plays only chords or simple riffs for self recording and he’s intending to use the rig to make patches for an existing workstation and learn to play. Is that too much or something simpler? Apparently there’s a deal somewhere he’s found

For those who either play in a band and/or are intermediate to advanced is it that preferable to have a full 88weighted keyboard? I’m asking as I’m the one usually playing keys and we are playing on 61 keys and since I don’t play classical piano anymore, I have not found myself in situation of not enough keys.
Is a full sized stage piano generally most recommended so you can fall back to classical piano and have the options? Or?

Thanks

Hi all i can say is that I have an Oxygen88 and it works brill for my use which is recording, working brilliantly with all the instruments that I have in my East West/Soundsonline library and Native Instruments/Kontact library etc. Good Luck with whatever you choose/do. Regards. Bernie Cochrane

 

[kgabris]

quote from Bernie

Hi all i can say is that I have an Oxygen88

quote ends

quote from m-audio:

A Pleasure to Play

We carefully designed the Oxygen 88 keyboard to emulate the feel and response of an acoustic piano. Graded hammer action means that the keys are slightly heavier in the bass and lighter in the treble areas—just like the real thing. We’ve also incorporated four highly musical velocity curves, so you can choose the one that best suits your playing style. In addition, Oxygen 88 includes three pedal inputs so you can incorporate two sustain pedals and one expression pedal for total piano-style control over your performance.

quote ends

I'm writing:
four highly musical velocity curves - this means it is analogue. Because the curve is continuous, not limited to fixed set of values (discrete).

From now on, I'll use - this - for your quote, and ! ! for what I'm writing, ok?

-
and it works brill for my use which is recording, working brilliantly with all the instruments that I have
-

!
What kind of instruments do you have?

ll instruments are susceptible to digitalized damage... (damage from digitalization)

If you're interested, read this:

Why modern violinists sound the same?

www.violinist.com

!

-
in my East West/Soundsonline library and Native Instruments/Kontact library etc.
-

!I am not really into Dj and sampling...
!

Good Luck with whatever you choose/do. Regards. Bernie Cochrane



[/QUOTE]
Bernie777,

 

[Sigurd]

Hi,
My guitarist is intent on buying an 88 key weighted key midi controller but he most plays only chords or simple riffs for self recording and he’s intending to use the rig to make patches for an existing workstation and learn to play. Is that too much or something simpler? Apparently there’s a deal somewhere he’s found

For those who either play in a band and/or are intermediate to advanced is it that preferable to have a full 88weighted keyboard? I’m asking as I’m the one usually playing keys and we are playing on 61 keys and since I don’t play classical piano anymore, I have not found myself in situation of not enough keys.
Is a full sized stage piano generally most recommended so you can fall back to classical piano and have the options? Or?

Thanks

Hi, I have to agree about whatever the guitarist wants and can afford. I have a Komplete 88 key Controller that I love. I don't use it to gig though. I also have a Roland VR-09 to gig with. Great sounds and only 12 lbs...

 

[anotherscott]

four highly musical velocity curves - this means it is analogue. Because the curve is continuous, not limited to fixed set of values (discrete).

No, it's digital. All MIDI is digital. Usually there are 127 possible velocities, and the curves are different ways to map those values to how hard you play. Some controllers and some software can make use of a second byte, which gives you about 16k possible values, but it's still discrete.

Anyway, to earlier comments, as many have said, a big reason people choose 88 is that's what most hammer actions are, and hammer actions give you better control over velocity (dynamics) and allow you to better replicate piano technique. OTOH, hammer mechanisms are awful for organ technique, so it depends on what your goal is. It is possible to get an 88 without hammers, or a 7x-key board with them, so it's really two decisions, # of keys and action.

Another reason people prefer 7x or 88 keys over 61, besides having the full range of a piano (and some other keyboard instruments), is that you have more real estate to work with if you want to split the keyboard into two (or more) different sounds.

 

[kgabris]

No, it's digital. All MIDI is digital. Usually there are 127 possible velocities,

-127 possible velocities mean, that there are 127 possible values.

and the curves are different ways to map those values to how hard you play.

- you can try to fit a curve to discrete points in space, but then you'll make a digital/analogue conversion. I don't know if that's possible, or it makes sense.

Some controllers and some software can make use of a second byte, which gives you about 16k possible values, but it's still discrete.

- discrete means that you have a variable, which have different values, and those values are limited.

Anyway, to earlier comments, as many have said, a big reason people choose 88 is that's what most hammer actions are, and hammer actions give you better control over velocity (dynamics) and allow you to better replicate piano technique. OTOH, hammer mechanisms are awful for organ technique, so it depends on what your goal is. It is possible to get an 88 without hammers, or a 7x-key board with them, so it's really two decisions, # of keys and action.

- I don't understand that.

Another reason people prefer 7x or 88 keys over 61, besides having the full range of a piano (and some other keyboard instruments), is that you have more real estate to work with if you want to split the keyboard into two (or more) different sounds.

- Real estate is a house. Digital piano is a hybrid of a piano (the keys, schematically), and a synthesizer.

 

[anotherscott]

- you can try to fit a curve to discrete points in space, but then you'll make a digital/analogue conversion.

The keyboard's processing is entirely digital. As mentioned, there are 127 possible velocity values which get digitally mapped. The velocities are determined by a digital calculation (to some level of precision) of how long it takes the key to move from its high sensor point to its low sensor point. The only thing at all analog in this process is the physical motion of your finger moving the key.

discrete means that you have a variable, which have different values, and those values are limited

Discrete means separate, individual, distinct from others. In MIDI, there is no truly continuous range, everything is digital and broken into discrete steps, typically of 128 (velocity is 127 because the value of 0 is special-cased as being equivalent to note-off). So yes, when it comes to MIDI velocity, as you say, "those values are limited." If it were analog, the possible values would be theoretically infinite.

I don't understand that.

Can you be more specific about what you don't understand?

Real estate is a house.

Coloquially speaking, having anough "real estate" can refer to simply having enough space. I was just saying that, besides covering the full range of a piano (or some other instruments), people can prefer to have more than 61 keys in order to have enough keys to be able to split the keyboard into different sounds without running out of playable space for any of those individual sounds.

just been having more space to stretch out.

 

[anotherscott]

p.s. - sorry about that last line in the previous post, it was left over text from editing, it wasn't supposed to be there, and now it's too late to fix!

 

[kgabris]

Hi AnotherScott,

no problems. What were you doing?

I don't know what to say. This is a music forum for keyboard and midi / computer discussions, but primarily keyboard.

So, please write an email to me, if you would like to talk about this.

Krisztian

 

[anotherscott]

Everything I've talked about has been keyboard stuff. I was only addressing your proposition that there was something analog in the Oxygen (there is not... velocity is "digitized" to one of 127 discrete values), and trying to explain why someone may want more keys in their keyboard (i.e. because of the action OR because of wanting more keys available for splits). That's it in a nutshell!

 

[Claytonf]

This is what Yamaha refers to as "graded hammer action". I have played Roland products and like them. In addition, the Roland has a mod wheel. I prefer these weighted key system over Roland's (I think Roland makes the best electronic drums). It's really hard to go wrong with Yamaha products, whether you're looking for a keyboard, drums, guitar, speaker monitor or outboard marine engine for your boat or motorcycle.

 

[Sigurd]

Hi,
My guitarist is intent on buying an 88 key weighted key midi controller but he most plays only chords or simple riffs for self recording and he’s intending to use the rig to make patches for an existing workstation and learn to play. Is that too much or something simpler? Apparently there’s a deal somewhere he’s found

For those who either play in a band and/or are intermediate to advanced is it that preferable to have a full 88weighted keyboard? I’m asking as I’m the one usually playing keys and we are playing on 61 keys and since I don’t play classical piano anymore, I have not found myself in situation of not enough keys.
Is a full sized stage piano generally most recommended so you can fall back to classical piano and have the options? Or?

I usually recommend to people that want to learn piano to get 88 keys, however, if all you are going to do is use it as accompaniment to your guitar then a 61 key would work well. I gig with a Roland VR-09, a 61 keyboard because it weighs 12 pounds and I’m an old guy…
If you want to learn to play… get 88 keys…
I use a Roland Juno DS-88 as my controller into my DAW…

Thanks