MIDI hookup help!!

[Adam D'Agosto]

Hi all, need some help.

I have an acoustic piano with the AnyTime computer connected to it. This allows you to throw a lever on the piano and use it like a synth. It has three stock sounds (piano, harpsichord and sorta an organ). You're supposed to be able to be able to hook it up to other MIDI devices like sound modules and sequencers, but the owners manual is not all that helpful to me. So what I'm trying to do is output a piano note, into a Yamaha keyboard, and output the Yamaha sound to a speaker, effectively using the Yamaha as a sound module. This is supposedly possible according to the manual.

Anyway, I can't get it to work. So, let me ask you all this, how would you hook it all up if you came over the house today after having your Thanksgiving dinner?

The AnyTime computer has these connectors: MIDI IN, OUT and THRU. Left/Right 1/4" Line IN, Left/Right 1/4" Line OUT and two headphone outs.
The Yamaha keyboard has a MIDI IN and MIDI OUT along with a 1/4" Line OUT.

This should work!!!! So far I can get the acoustic piano to output its note to the keyboard and the keyboard to the speaker, but the sound of the note is always a concert piano. The Yamaha tone that is selected is never output using the piano keys (only from the Yamaha keys). This seems wrong to me considering the manual for the AnyTime computer talks about adding a sound module to expand the selection of sounds from the stock 3.

Can anyone decode this equation for me and explain how this should work? I will have dessert ready!!!!

Happy Thanksgiving all and enjoy the holidays.

 

[happyrat1]

First off all the hookup should be 5 pin MIDI cable from MIDI OUT on the controller to MIDI IN on the slave.

Secondly you have to configure both the Output device and the Input device to be using the same Bank Select Method. There are 4 to choose from depending on make and model of keyboard.

Once those have both been configured you should be able to at least step thru the first 128 GM MIDI Voices on the Yamaha.

Happy Holidays to you. And our sincere condolences from Canada on your recent elections.

Gary

 

[Adam D'Agosto]

Gary, I appreciate your condolences. We will need them. Getting my piano hooked up to the keyboard is important to be because music is the only thing that will get us through the next 4 years!!

Ok, as for business...

I have hooked it up like you suggested and I had a feeling there was a setup procedure I needed to follow on the hardware, but I don't see exactly how to do that. The AnyTime computer has no other controls or features. So, I have no idea how to configure it. The keyboard on the other hand, may or may not have a way of doing it. It's really old and I don't have the book. It's also not obvious how to do what you suggested. So....I'm going to go on the assumption that a more advanced keyboard and modern one will have that ability. I just need to find one and try it out.

Thanks for the help (and thoughts).

Adam

 

[happyrat1]

Can you specify the exact model Yamaha you are using?

A quick check of the manual will tell you which bank select method it uses as well as whether or not MIDI in has to be enabled and which channels are available to configure.

There are only 4 bank select methods to choose from so simple trial and error will tell you which one works.

Typically most of these devices default to MIDI channel 1 so that shouldn't need changing.

Audio should be hooked up from the Yamaha to whatever amp or monitors you are using. If you require audio from both keyboards at once a simple mixer such as the Behringer Xenyx 502 can do the job well enough.

The only other thing I can suggest without knowing the model in question is to search the manual of the Yamaha and look under MIDI options if MIDI Input and/or Output needs to be specifically enabled.

Good luck with everything... For the next 4 years music will be carrying a terrible burden.

Gary

 

[SeaGtGruff]

Yamaha's web site has manuals for most of their models available as free PDF downloads.

 

[Adam D'Agosto]

Hi.

The Yamaha keyboard is the PSR-170.
I think it was released shortly after Mozart passed away....

I hunted around, I dont see a way to tell it what bank to out put from.

Thanks again for the help.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

If you haven't already found a copy of the manual, you can download it from the following page:

http://download.yamaha.com/search/p...ry_id2=16084&category_id3=&product_id=1040693

There are two versions of the manual-- one is for just the PSR-170, and the other (which apparently came out a year or two later) is for the PSR-172 and PSR-170. I'd get both versions if I were you, in case one has some bit of information or explanation that isn't in the other.

I assume that the AnyTime piano you were talking about is one of the following:

http://kawaius.com/upright/anytime/anytime_main.html

The "Anytime Hybrid Piano" manual can be downloaded from the following page:

http://www.kawaius-tsd.com/pages/dp_om.html

If you want to use the AnyTime piano as a keyboard controller and the PSR-170 as a sound module, you'll want to plug one end of a MIDI cable into the MIDI OUT port of the AnyTime piano and the other end into the MIDI IN port of the PSR-170.

To see what information can be transmitted or received by each instrument, refer to the "MIDI Implementation Chart" in its manual. For the AnyTime piano this is given on page 18; for the PSR-170 it is given on pages 58 - 59.

The AnyTime piano transmits and receives only on MIDI channel 1, whereas the PSR-170 transmits and receives MIDI channels 1 - 7 and 10, so there's no problem there for what you want to do.

As I see it, the main problem you'll face is that the AnyTime piano can't transmit Bank Select messages (i.e., Control Change messages 0 and 32), and can transmit only three Program Change values (0 - 2). That means the AnyTime piano is essentially worthless for selecting which PSR-170 voice you want to play. Instead, you'll need to control the voice selection and other parameter changes either from the PSR-170 itself or by using an additional controller.

The only possible wrinkle is that the PSR-170's panel controls normally don't affect the sounds generated in response to incoming MIDI data. I think you should be able to get around this by using the "Melody Voice Change" feature on the PSR-170. The steps would be as follows:

(1) If the PSR-170 isn't already in the Voice mode, press the VOICE button (so it lights up).

(2) Select the number of the voice you want to play.

(3) Hold down the VOICE button for a moment until the "MELODY VOICE CHANGE" message is displayed on the screen.

(4) Start playing the AnyTime piano and the notes should sound on the PSR-170 using the selected voice.

EDIT: If that doesn't work, another option is to get a MIDI merge box, such as the following one:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MIDImerge2

You'd use the merge box to merge the MIDI OUT of the AnyTime piano with the MIDI OUT of the PSR-170, then send the merged data to the MIDI IN of the PSR-170. But try the "Melody Voice Change" feature first to see if it works.

 

[Adam D'Agosto]

Hello!!! Wow, thank you so much for trying to help. You clearly have an excellent handle on this stuff.

Unfortunately it did not work. Before I held down the Voice button, I was able to get the AnyTime to transmit the midi tone to the Yamaha, but would only be outout at a "piano" tone, regardless of the Yamaha setting. Then, when I held down the Voice button, it did go into the mode you spoke of, "Melody Voice Change", but it ended up silencing the AnyTime.

Here is a side note...my friend has a sound module that is collecting dust. I actually tried it once before and could not get it to work, but I think that's because I was more clueless about setting it up. I believe its a Roland Sound Canvas unit from the mid 2000's. Either way, its more modern than the Yamaha keyboard that I have. I may be able to get it today.

So, my question is....do you think the weak link is the AnyTime unit or the Yamaha keyboard? Will I have the same problem with the Roland?

Anyway, thanks for the tip on the Merge unit. Thanks an interesting idea.

Adam

 

[Adam D'Agosto]

One more thing...

The AnyTime computer is the AT-170. This link should drive to a pdf.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...iQTb9e4lGg7QbSU_w&sig2=iSlswmUUTszTqiFKoFwRcQ

By all accounts, this should work and it leads me to believe the problem is not the old AnyTime, but the old Keyboard.

If the link works, check out page 10-12. It seems pretty straight forward, but I have no more hair to pull out

Thx!

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I think there are two parts to this issue, but I also think there's a way to make it work.

The first problem is that the AnyTime piano doesn't output any decent Program Change events (only three possible values), and no Bank Select events, such that it's essentially worthless for selecting voices on a sound module. Switching from a Yamaha keyboard to a Roland sound module isn't going to solve this problem.

The second problem is that changes made using the Yamaha keyboard's panel controls aren't applied to incoming MIDI events. It's not an issue with the age of the keyboard (my newer models work the same way); it's just the way the keyboard is designed to work, and there are actually some advantages to this. The technical explanation has to do with "parts" (in the sense of "roles," such as the parts that actors play in a movie). Each of the 16 MIDI channels is a part; each of keyboard's three voices (main, dual, and split) is a part; and (I think) each of the eight auto-accompaniment channels is a part. The panel controls affect one set of parts, incoming MIDI data affects a different sets of parts, and these parts don't affect each other. On more expensive Yamaha models there are more sophisticated menu options for controlling MIDI operations and associating these parts with each other in various ways, but the less expensive models such as you and I have don't provide those options.

I don't know how the Roland sound module would work.

There are still options available to you with the Yamaha PSR-170, but I think they all involve buying a MIDI merger box such as the one I linked to in my previous response. You may or may not also want to buy an additional control surface that has buttons, knobs, and/or sliders which can be assigned to different Control Change events.

The simplest setup would require a 2-in-1-out MIDI merge box and three MIDI cables:

Cable 1 - From the AnyTime piano's MIDI Out to one of the merge box's MIDI Ins.
Cable 2 - From the PSR-170's MIDI Out to another of the merge box's MIDI Ins.
Cable 3 - From the Merge box's MIDI Out to the PSR-170's MIDI In.

You might want to turn off the PSR-170's Local Control, but it shouldn't be necessary if you aren't going to be playing the keys on the PSR-170 anyway.

Another setup would be to get a MIDI merge box that has at least three MIDI In ports, a control surface with assignable controls, and a fourth MIDI cable:

Cable 4 - From the additional control surface to one of the merge box's MIDI Ins.

Assuming you programmed the additional control surface to send Control Change events that the PSR-170 can respond to, you could then use the knobs or sliders or other controls on the control surface to change things like the attack/release times of the PSR-170's voices, or their filter cutoff/resonance settings, etc. (refer to the MIDI Implementation Chart to see which event types are recognized).

EDIT: The setups described above would let you control a single voice only-- no split and no layer. If you think you might want to use the AnyTime piano to play a split and/or layer on the PSR-170 or other sound module then you'll probably want to get something more complex than a simple MIDI merge box. So it might be a good idea to decide exactly what all you'd like to be able to do before you pull the trigger on a simple MIDI merge box.

 

[Adam D'Agosto]

This is very interesting stuff. I totally follow your breakkdown.

Ok so here's the deal. If it were just me using this "rig", I'd probably be fine with what you are describing. Problem is, my wife and son would us it as well. She needs maximum simplicity and my son has no patience. He the super talented one too.

I was envisioning a rig where you turn on the AnyTime unit, the "magic" box and it would be off to the races and the magic box would control the show. That being said, do you think I'm better off looking for a more modern version of the AnyTime computer and swap out the units? I have yet to find an upgraded version, but by the looks of your link there may be something out there.

Or...if that's simply not an option, I'd say your merge box idea into a sound module may be the only viable option.

Thoughts?

 

[SeaGtGruff]

The MIDI merge box I linked to is powered by the MIDI connections, so once you've got everything hooked up there should be nothing more to fiddle with regarding the merge box.

You'd still need to select the desired voice using the PSR-170's or other sound module's controls, but that shouldn't be difficult-- at least, I don't think it would be difficult on the PSR-170; I don't know how complicated a sound module's controls might be.

So depending on where the PSR-170 or sound module is set up relative to the AnyTime piano, it probably wouldn't be too awkward or difficult to choose which sound to use.

One other possible consideration if you're going to use the AnyTime piano is where the sound would be coming from. If the piano is going to be used strictly as a keyboard controller, you'll need something else for the sound. The PSR-170 has built-in speakers, so that would solve that problem. A sound module probably wouldn't have built-in speakers, leaving one more thing to worry about.

If you'd prefer to get something else instead of the AnyTime piano to use as a MIDI keyboard controller-- something that could send proper Bank Select and Program Change messages-- a decent 88-key controller would certainly cost more than a MIDI merge box.

On the other hand, if the end goal is to have a nice 88-key instrument for everyone to use that can either function as a piano or play a wide variety of other sounds, you might want to just buy a new keyboard-- e.g., a Casio Privia model, or a Yamaha DGX model, or something else, depending on your budget, desired key action, desired sound quality, etc. It would certainly be much more costly than just buying a MIDI merge box to use with what you've already got, but it would be an all-in-one solution.

 

[Adam D'Agosto]

Hi again,

Great news....I dusted off my friends Roland U-220 Sound Module and everything works as I'd expext (and hope). Clearly the Merge Box would enable the Yamaha to work, but I think I'm moving past the PSR-170. The sounds that are coming out of this Roland SM are amazing in comparison. The problem with the Roland is its a rack mound design. In my case, a "box" design would be best. I've had my eye on the Yamaha MU2000 for a couple years. But the great news is that it works.

But for me this raises a new problem. I could just as easily accomplish the same task using a slightly more modern Keyboard; I can use its brain and play the acoustic piano in the same way I'm using the Roland U-220. In my sons case, if he had a decent keyboard, he could also use it for his band. I think a 61 key would be all that's needed. They would most likely only use it for somewhat simple parts. So, there's an advantage to the keyboard route.

A used MU2000 after shipping it from Japan will run about $300 (in 2016). I think I can justify say $600 for a keyboard option. In that price range I think I need to go back like 15 years!!!! Keyboards are crazy expensive. I thought guitars were bad enough. Playing the keys is way more of a commitment to the bank account!!

This thread has been a huge help to me. Thank you so much!!!

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I'm glad the Roland sound module can do what you want.

I've no experience with either the Roland U-220 or the Yamaha MU2000, but my assumption is that the MU2000 might sound at least a little bit like the PSR-170. Certainly the PSR-170 uses XGlite, whereas the MU2000 uses XG and has a lot more voices and polyphony and parts than the PSR-170, so the MU2000 should be far more powerful and capable than the PSR-170.

But if you think the U-220 sounds amazing in comparison to the PSR-170, you might want to hold off on pulling the trigger on the MU2000 until you've had opportunities to watch (and listen) to videos of it being demonstrated to see how you think it sounds. Of course, you might get lucky and find a used unit for sale on Craigslist or eBay from somewhere closer than Japan.

 

[John Garside]

One of the problems with the MU2000 is that it was never sold commercially outside of Japan.
What does that mean? No manuals in English. That can make life exceedingly complex.
I have a couple of the MU1000s, the same piece of kit without the addition of sampling.
Great modules, very capable (64 channels) and good sounds, but I knew a great deal about MIDI and had had an MU128 (the precursor) before I bought them.
One of the main reasons I got them is because they can support up to three of the internal expansion synthesiser PLG cards AN, DX and VL.
But that's a whole different can of worms!
So I'd support Credo's verdict.

 

[Adam D'Agosto]

John et all,

Great info. This is a huge help!!

So at this point, I think my best bet is to not go with a sound module and instead go with a full keyboard synth. Here's my reasoning...

Even though the AnyTime Piano computer works with sound modules, the actually handling characteristics of the piano changes when in this mode. The touch and feel changes and not is a really nice way. It feels flat and the stroke is shortened up. Anyway, having a dedicated keyboard will still give the AnyTime piano the ability to play the sounds from the keyboard if I want, but the keyboard itself will probably have a better feel than the piano + sound module will.

But, I have to say, this thread has been hugely helpful to me!! Thanks you for your comments!!

 

[tassiespirit]

Here is your manual for the Mu 2000
https://www.manualslib.com/products/Yamaha-Mu2000-554689.html
Look at this via price alone is not the only way to do things, but look at the pleasure that you , your wife and son are getting from playing music and learning new ways of doing it. I commend you for trying to stretch yourself to learn more about midi, it opens doors; evento using software synths and a cheap midi controller. The software can have thousands of sounds and you get updates, not have to buy new hardware. Just a thought.