New to keys - My first 'real' keyboard - JUNO DS61, and some questions...

[big jilm]

I am new to keyboards - my band does a lot of Floyd stuff, and I am the guitarist that is on keyboard duty. I have been using a MicroKORG live, but it isn't cutting it - so I ordered my first real keyboard, the Roland DS61 at the recommendation of a good fellow here on the board.

So far, I have learned:
1. How to change the color of the lights in the pads (lol)
2. Add sounds to favorite buttons
3. Save changes to stock sounds so they can be added to favorites
4. Make, save, and add split sounds to favorite buttons.
5. How to use a USB thumb drive to trigger sound effects (like alarm clocks for 'Time').
6. How to use my Ernie Ball volume pedal as an expression pedal
7. How to assign to the expression pedal different things (cutoff, effects, etc.)

I am trying to figure out:
1. How to get my hold pedal to work on the organs like it does on the pianos (hold and fade out as opposed to holding the entire time I am pressing the pedal).
2. How to assign different effects to the expression pedal depending on the patch as opposed to globally to the entire keyboard.
3. (This is a big one) How can I get a split patch I created to hold with the sustain pedal while I switch patches the way a regular (not split patch) will.

I posted something similar on a Roland forum, but there isn't a lot of traffic over there, it seems.

I'm sure there will be much more! Anybody have any tips and tricks?

 

[CowboyNQ]

Hi Big Jilm,

1. Ain't gonna happen without some intervention by yourself. To make the organ fade out like the piano does you'll have to get into the patch itself and decrease the sustain time, which will also impact the way the note sounds when you simply hold the key down. To be honest, this may not be entirely desirable for organ sounds.

The reason for this is that a real piano works by a hammer hitting a string, so over time the sound eventually dissipates as the string stops vibrating. Real organs on the other hand don't really have a "sustain" function, the note is either "on" or "off". So much so that some keyboards don't allow the organ sounds to sustain after key release even if you depress a damper pedal. If they do, the sound will ring indefinitely unless you take the action I've suggested above.

I'm curious though. I play in a Floyd tribute and can't think of a reason I'd need an organ sound to slowly ring off while depressing a pedal. Perhaps if you can explain the tune you're trying to cover I can help you with a workaround?

2 and 3 will require a bit of manual diving. I think happyrat1 has a Juno DS and may be able to assist on that front.

Cheers!

 

[big jilm]

Hi Big Jilm,

1. Ain't gonna happen without some intervention by yourself. To make the organ fade out like the piano does you'll have to get into the patch itself and decrease the sustain time, which will also impact the way the note sounds when you simply hold the key down. To be honest, this may not be entirely desirable for organ sounds.

The reason for this is that a real piano works by a hammer hitting a string, so over time the sound eventually dissipates as the string stops vibrating. Real organs on the other hand don't really have a "sustain" function, the note is either "on" or "off". So much so that some keyboards don't allow the organ sounds to sustain after key release even if you depress a damper pedal. If they do, the sound will ring indefinitely unless you take the action I've suggested above.

I'm curious though. I play in a Floyd tribute and can't think of a reason I'd need an organ sound to slowly ring off while depressing a pedal. Perhaps if you can explain the tune you're trying to cover I can help you with a workaround?

2 and 3 will require a bit of manual diving. I think happyrat1 has a Juno DS and may be able to assist on that front.

Cheers!

Hey, Cowboy! Thanks for chiming in - just the guy I need for the Floyd stuff!

I understand what you mean about the organ tones being either on or off on a real one.... I guess I'll live with it then. And no, there was no specific song based need for me wanting it to work like that - I just thought it would be a cool feature to play with. As it stands, I can crank up the cutoff and the organ note will hang a little then decay, so I'll get some of what I am looking for that way. The full-on hold that happens now is actually helping me at the moment - I grab a pad and hold with the pedal while I hunt for the second chord! lol

Number 3 above is because of 'Time'. For the opening, I am goofing with a split patch I made with a heavy B3 on the bottom and an electric piano on the top. (It sounds like I will be replacing the B3 with a synth sound of some kind for the lower part - that low E to F# to A stuff while I tinkle away up top on the electric piano). When the song kicks in, I need to switch all the way to the electric piano (i need those lower notes back for the electric piano) so I have been trying to hit the low F# and hold it with the pedal (so it hangs there) while I switch to the ep patch. Right now it hangs until I push the button for the ep, but disappears right after the ep button is pressed - so the sound just cuts off really unnaturally.

What do you think about these sounds for 'Time':
Opening: split patch with a low rumbling synth sound at the bottom with an electric piano on the top
Verse: Electric piano for the funky stuff
Chorus: B3? Choral pad of some kind? Strings? Synth pad? Or...?

Does that sound about right?

Our band does a Pink Floyd set, and the guy who books us wants us to do more of it. We have Time of course, but we also play Comfortably Numb, Mother, In The Flesh, Breathe, Run Like Hell, Another Brick (various parts mashed into one), Money, and On The Run (my MicroKorg had something that 'kinda' worked for this but so far no luck on the JUNO - I have yet to work with the sequencer, so I may get it there?) We are looking at a few others like some stuff off of Animals, Wish You Were Here, etc.

Thanks for all your help!!! I am probably going to wear you out, here - let me know If I bug you too much! Floyd is my favorite band and music, so I am trying to do it some justice with my VERY limited skills and knowledge.

 

[happyrat1]

There's a reason why stage performers usually have more than one keyboard stacked up when they're playing live dude.

Gary

 

[big jilm]

There's a reason why stage performers usually have more than one keyboard stacked up when they're playing live dude.

Gary

Man - I wish I could afford two! lol
I guess I could get my MicroKorg on top...

 

[Fred Coulter]

There's a reason why stage performers usually have more than one keyboard stacked up when they're playing live dude.

Gary

I keep going back to the last music festival I went to. The one with about 10% of the acts having keyboards at all.

I'm trying to remember if any of the acts had more than one keyboard. I can't think of one

Right now, at least on the local level, we're in a keyboard desert.

(Very depressed. Hey! the weekend's starting. Maybe that will cheer me up.)

But if you're playing keyboard centric music (Pink Floyd, progressive rock in general), then you'll need two or more. (Look at what Rick Wakeman drags around with him.) But IF your keyboard can respond to multiple channels, an inexpensive solution would be to get a controller as the second keyboard. Just set up your patches so that the sounds played by the controller are on MIDI channel 2, while the sounds driven by the main keyboard are on channel 1. (Or whatever works.)

 

[CowboyNQ]

There's a reason why stage performers usually have more than one keyboard stacked up when they're playing live

This is quite true, especially when it comes to recreating Floyd. I use three keyboards and an iPad to get the job done, and for some gigs we have a second keyboardist to REALLY capture all the sounds as I only have two hands and we don't use backing tracks/sequencers etc. except for songs like On The Run, where Pink Floyd themselves used a sequencer.

Man - I wish I could afford two! lol
I guess I could get my MicroKorg on top...

That is not a dumb idea!

What do you think about these sounds for 'Time':
Opening: split patch with a low rumbling synth sound at the bottom with an electric piano on the top
Verse: Electric piano for the funky stuff
Chorus: B3? Choral pad of some kind? Strings? Synth pad? Or...?

Opening: Yes. I also play strings for this section. I don't do the synth bass rumble (I do the EP in the left hand and strings in the right hand), I let the bass player cover that with an effects pedal. Not that your way is wrong. Sometimes when playing keys in Floyd songs you need to decide what not to play (or use a second keys player).
Verse: Yes - by the way the EP on both is a Wurlitzer
Chorus: Yes, an organ patch. No synth, no strings. Well, when I say no synth or strings, you can do what you like really, but they're not on the recording. Suspect the reason you want those is the original has some very thick and juicy backing vocals in there, so you could substitute synth pad or strings to fatten the chords up in the chorus.

Here is our version for reference: https://soundcloud.com/user-412825325/pink-floyd-time

Our band does a Pink Floyd set, and the guy who books us wants us to do more of it. We have Time of course, but we also play Comfortably Numb, Mother, In The Flesh, Breathe, Run Like Hell, Another Brick (various parts mashed into one), Money, and On The Run

My band does all those. Yell out if you need help with any ideas at all.

Thanks for all your help!!! I am probably going to wear you out, here - let me know If I bug you too much! Floyd is my favorite band and music, so I am trying to do it some justice with my VERY limited skills and knowledge.

Mate, I'm more than happy to help - I wouldn't go on here if I wasn't prepared to ask and answer questions about playing keys!

 

[big jilm]

This is quite true, especially when it comes to recreating Floyd. I use three keyboards and an iPad to get the job done, and for some gigs we have a second keyboardist to REALLY capture all the sounds as I only have two hands and we don't use backing tracks/sequencers etc. except for songs like On The Run, where Pink Floyd themselves used a sequencer.


That is not a dumb idea!


Opening: Yes. I also play strings for this section. I don't do the synth bass rumble (I do the EP in the left hand and strings in the right hand), I let the bass player cover that with an effects pedal. Not that your way is wrong. Sometimes when playing keys in Floyd songs you need to decide what not to play (or use a second keys player).
Verse: Yes - by the way the EP on both is a Wurlitzer
Chorus: Yes, an organ patch. No synth, no strings. Well, when I say no synth or strings, you can do what you like really, but they're not on the recording. Suspect the reason you want those is the original has some very thick and juicy backing vocals in there, so you could substitute synth pad or strings to fatten the chords up in the chorus.

Here is our version for reference: https://soundcloud.com/user-412825325/pink-floyd-time


My band does all those. Yell out if you need help with any ideas at all.


Mate, I'm more than happy to help - I wouldn't go on here if I wasn't prepared to ask and answer questions about playing keys!

Great version of 'Time' there! I really like your organ tone on the chorus - I think I will try that too. You have given me some good info, man. I'll private message you with questions, if you don't mind. I really appreciate the help!

As far as using 2 or 3 keyboards, we are a really ghetto low-rent Pink Floyd tribute, for sure. What we lack in talent and equipment, we make up for in enthusiasm! We are a pretty typical bar band - nothing great, but the folks really love it when we do our little 30 minute Floyd thing. We just want to add some more.

 

[CowboyNQ]

Great version of 'Time' there! I really like your organ tone on the chorus - I think I will try that too. You have given me some good info, man. I'll private message you with questions, if you don't mind. I really appreciate the help!

As far as using 2 or 3 keyboards, we are a really ghetto low-rent Pink Floyd tribute, for sure. What we lack in talent and equipment, we make up for in enthusiasm! We are a pretty typical bar band - nothing great, but the folks really love it when we do our little 30 minute Floyd thing. We just want to add some more.

Thanks Big Jilm! Feel free to PM me with anything. And don't worry, I totally get what you're doing with your band. Apart from the Floyd tribute, I play in a bar band too and we cover all sorts of stuff - we don't get everything 100% as it sounds on the original recordings but do try and get things close enough so the punters keep drinking, dancing and having a great time.

 

[Rick Sterling]

Suggestion: Get a Korg Kronos, it works for Queen. ;-)

 

[Fred Coulter]

Suggestion: Get a Korg Kronos, it works for Queen. ;-)

There are cheaper solutions out there. I see far more Kronoses (that looks wrong; what would the plural of Kronos be?) in the hands of the arena bands than bar bands.

 

[Rick Sterling]

There are cheaper solutions out there. I see far more Kronoses (that looks wrong; what would the plural of Kronos be?) in the hands of the arena bands than bar bands.

True, but there is probably no better keyboard presently available if you can only have one. I could see an argument that for a small band or single keyboardist the Kronos would be the ticket to fatten things up. ;-)

Kronii ?

On the Korg forums I think they settled on One Kronos, Two Kronos, Three Kronos etc.

 

[big jilm]

Well, Kronos is the Greek word for 'Time', and the Greek word for 'Times' is Fores - so more than one Kronos must be referred to as "Two Korg Fores, three Korg Fores" etc.)

I can definitely say I won't be buying a Kronos (or several Fores) any time soon - this Juno DS broke my music budget for the year (I had already purchased some other guitar stuff).

I am figuring the DS out, and really digging it so far. Played it through my QSC K12 at practice, and it sounded really cool.

 

[Rick Sterling]

Well, Kronos is the Greek word for 'Time', and the Greek word for 'Times' is Fores - so more than one Kronos must be referred to as "Two Korg Fores, three Korg Fores" etc.)

I can definitely say I won't be buying a Kronos (or several Fores) any time soon - this Juno DS broke my music budget for the year (I had already purchased some other guitar stuff).

I am figuring the DS out, and really digging it so far. Played it through my QSC K12 at practice, and it sounded really cool.

The Juno DS is a competent keyboard ... enjoy!

 

[NonDairy]

I have both a Juno Stage and a Juno Di. In terms of sustaining a patch while switching to a second patch, there are limitations. The Stage can't do it at all (which is annoying because my Alesis QS7 from 1998 can do it). For the Di, I had to download a software upgrade and then go into the global settings and make a change (I don't remember the specifics) that allowed patches to sustain while you changed to a new patch. And if you have them all saved in a Favorites bank, I'm not 100% sure it's possible at all.

The problem is with the architecture of the current Roland Juno series, every time you change patches (or splits), a whole new set of effects has to be loaded for the next sound. I'm not sure they've built in a way to hold an old note and essentially change every setting simultaneously. That said, you can totally split the keyboard into more than two patches (every combination technically has 16 channels to choose from). I'm upgrading soon, to a Yamaha that actually can sustain a note while changing sounds, but I play in a cover band just using my Stage. For, say, Born to Run, I have (from left to right) a low sax, a rock organ, a piano, and a glockenspiel w/piano. That way, I can hold the sax and/or organ and switch between the piano and piano/glockenspiel without worrying about switching anything up and having the sounds cut out.

You can also assign an arpeggiator to only one patch in a combination, which I do for Danger Zone: (from left to right) synth bass, harmonica, hard lead w/arpeggiator.

That said, I played in a Floyd tribute in NYC once just using my Juno Stage. It did the job very well, though there were a few moments where the only way I got the correct sound effects was by editing mp3s of the original song and using the thumb drive to play those sound files (the clocks on Time, for example, or the plane crash at the end of In The Flesh). With the DS, it might be even easier, as you can assign different sound files to each of those 8 pads and launch them from there.

In terms of having your organs fade out, you might be able to do it on the fly, by playing with the "Release" knob in real time. Or just turning down your volume.

 

[Rayblewit]

Suggestion: Get a Korg Kronos, it works for Queen. ;-)

That was an impressive vid of the queen snippets. A great advertisement for Korg. That muso has a kind of magic about him.

 

[b3keys]

Man - I wish I could afford two! lol
I guess I could get my MicroKorg on top...

Heres a suggestion (which will be blasted by "real" keys guys).. Instead of the microkorg, Yamaha ha ha.... makes an MX49 (lists at $500, B-Sock at $400) OR, MX61... It streets for around $700 (can be had B-stock for around $500-550). It comes in COLORS (one of the many reasons it will be blasted)... BUT.. I bought the little 49 key version just to leave in my trunk in case I was asked to sit in when I was out and about... I liked the stupid little thing so much, I bought the 61 key version also and now its top of the stack. It has the Motif sound board inside (so I'm told).. BUT you can't really edit the sounds (what do you want for $600).... You CAN run the editor program to layer up to 16 tho.. . Its cheap plastic (13 # I believe)... its like a Casio but with a LOT better sound. Wont break the bank and I think you'll like it (I've got the Juno G, which I love, but it is cantankerous).... (only "disadvantage" is the little bitty screen.... WHY can't these keyboard makers blutooth all that over to a phone or tablet.... arghhhhh)

 

[Fred Coulter]

Heres a suggestion (which will be blasted by "real" keys guys).. Instead of the microkorg, Yamaha ha ha.... makes an MX49 (lists at $500, B-Sock at $400) OR, MX61... It streets for around $700 (can be had B-stock for around $500-550).

Any second keyboard with real size keys would be an improvement over a single keyboard for use in a progressive rock band. Two comments. First, make sure that you like and can use the sounds on the keyboard. As b3keys said, editing the MX series is not for the faint at heart. (Although there is discussion in the specs of 128 slots for user sounds, so it must not be impossible.)

Second, a 49 key keyboard is usable as long as you have another keyboard that's at least five octaves. Trying to limit yourself to a single 49 key keyboard while playing progressive rock is probably a fast way to drive yourself crazy. But I'd recommend the 61 key version. The MX series keyboards can be split, so you could have two different sounds available simultaneously on the same keyboard, plus whatever else you do on the other keyboard. Most progressive rock groups, and this definitely includes Pink Floyd, use multiple keyboards sounds in the same song. Being able to just grab them without switching patches will make your life much easier. And having two sounds on a 49 key keyboard will be very tight.

 

[b3keys]

Any second keyboard with real size keys would be an improvement over a single keyboard for use in a progressive rock band. Two comments. First, make sure that you like and can use the sounds on the keyboard. As b3keys said, editing the MX series is not for the faint at heart. (Although there is discussion in the specs of 128 slots for user sounds, so it must not be impossible.)

Second, a 49 key keyboard is usable as long as you have another keyboard that's at least five octaves. Trying to limit yourself to a single 49 key keyboard while playing progressive rock is probably a fast way to drive yourself crazy. But I'd recommend the 61 key version. The MX series keyboards can be split, so you could have two different sounds available simultaneously on the same keyboard, plus whatever else you do on the other keyboard. Most progressive rock groups, and this definitely includes Pink Floyd, use multiple keyboards sounds in the same song. Being able to just grab them without switching patches will make your life much easier. And having two sounds on a 49 key keyboard will be very tight.

Good suggestions Fred..... Its amazing what you can do with the stupid little board. The editing software lets you layer (up to 16 voices) and do multiple splits, all by changing the midi channel on the 16 voices (and where you assign them on the keyboard, so.. I guess you could do 16 splits (ouch)... plus control some parameters but not direct manipulation of the voices (darn)... But.... I've tried the Roland and Korg boards like this(not impressed) ... and I've never owned a yamaha before (OK, the TX-7 sound module but).... so I'm not a big "yamaha is great kinda guy". Heres the web address for the editor You can run it even without the MX to see what it does). My only complaint is its not a librarian.... but it will store patches (you just have to load them back in one at a time instead of by bank)
http://www.vycromx.com/

 

[big jilm]

Well, I got a second tier for my keyboard stand, and now run my MicroKORG above my Juno DS61. It's cool to be able to hit them both for certain things. Is the setup perfect? No - but it's better than my skill level at the moment, and it's lots of fun!
Our Pink Floyd set just got a whole lot cooler, that's for sure!