Search for studio keyboard

[mdloomis]

Greetings.

I'm looking for a keyboard for studio use with the following requirements:

1) Stand-alone hardware only - no software instruments.

2) Realistic sounds - as much as possible. Acoustic piano, B-3, Rhodes/Wurly, strings (in order of importance). I do not need tons of effects or sequencing - just decent basic sounds. I also already have a Leslie-like rotating speaker amp, so Leslie simulations for the B-3 are not required either.

3) "Good" feel, playability. This is a hard one. I want something that any decent keyboardist who comes to the studio can appreciate. Is there a unit that can please everyone, or am I doomed to fail on this point because everyone wants something different? It generally won't be me playing it, so I don't know how useful my own touch preference will be here.

4) Is this possible for under $1000?

I heard the Yamaha S90 in a band context on Soundstage the other night. I thought it sounded pretty decent. There's just so much to choose from, any advice, suggestions, or direction is more than appreciated!

Thanks,

Michael

 

[jpscoey]

'

Hi there, I didn't say hello in the introduction page, so welcome!

It looks to me as though your heading in the right direction by looking
at Yamaha... it's generally agreed that piano sounds don't come any
better than theirs.

The biggest problem you have, as far as I can see, is your budget -
for highest-quality piano sounds $1000 may be a little restricting...

If you were looking at piano alone then you'd get a decent one for that sort of money
(you'd get greater polyphony), but you say organ / EP / strings are also important, so compromise
is the answer.
There are some fine instruments out there which you should consider, and in my opinion,
the one that stands out as fulfilling your requirement the best would be Yamaha's Motif Mo8.
Why?
It has a full-size 88-note keyboard, with weighted keys for a start - something any
piano player would say is essential.

It also provides a very wide range of good quality voices (the sounds come from the
more expensive Motif ES).

It's studio friendly & has a good interface (incl. sliders & knobs for 'tweaking' voices).

Read the Sound on Sound review here (this is for the Mo6 -identical in every way apart
from the size of the keyboard -only 61 unweighted keys)

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun06/articles/yamaham06.htm

As Kanthos said in his post, this is a place where people offer opinions - this is
mine, but others may have different suggestions!

Good luck & keep us informed as to how you go on?

.

 

[mdloomis]

Thanks for the quick reply, jpscoey. I really do appreciate your feedback.

It looks to me as though your heading in the right direction by looking at Yamaha... it's generally agreed that piano sounds don't come any
better than theirs.

The biggest problem you have, as far as I can see, is your budget -
for highest-quality piano sounds $1000 may be a little restricting...

If you were looking at piano alone then you'd get a decent one for that sort of money (you'd get greater polyphony), but you say organ / EP / strings are also important, so compromise is the answer. There are some fine instruments out there which you should consider, and in my opinion, the one that stands out as fulfilling your requirement the best would be Yamaha's Motif Mo8.

Quality piano sounds are quite important for this purchase, so if you feel that $1K won't cut it, then I may just have to spend more than that!

I've learned over time while building my studio that, for me, compromises save money only initially. In those cases where I've skimped on an equipment purchase, I usually end up dissatisfied to some degree, sell the piece ( for a lo$$ ), and then buy what I really needed/wanted in the first place.

Thanks for the link to the Motif Mo8 review. I will certainly check one out soon, but I will look to see what a larger purchase will buy as well. If you have any more thoughts given my recent budget increase (lets say $2000), I'm all ears.

Michael

 

[jpscoey]

'

Hi again Michael, I entirely agree with what you said about compromising - it never
really pays dividends, does it?

Now: let me just be clear on this - I'm a massive Korg fan, so I'm not trying to sell you anything here,
'cos I think, from what you said, that Yamaha is still the way to go.

I'm still inclined towards the Yamaha Motif range, and with your increased budget you could probably
go right up to the top of the pile - the Motif XS8.

Again I'll include an 'SOS' link -
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct07/articles/yamahamotifxs7.htm

I own the 76-note version of this fantastic keyboard & WOW - it really is
the Mutt's Nuts!

Compared to the Mo8 I mentioned before it does everything you could possibly wish
for (and the polyphony i referred to is doubled to 128 notes - I'm not aware of any
keyboards with more than that).

Yes, it has the sequencer & so-on: but if you have that covered elsewhere, just
don't use it - concentrate on the other stuff.

The sounds/voices & playability (8 knobs, 8 slide controls, pitch & modulation wheels
+ ribbon controller + velocity sensitive + aftertouch - it's got everything!) are worth the
ticket price & then some.

I guarantee that any keyboard player coming into your studio will smile when they see
you have got one of these available!

Over here in the UK we seem to have to spend more money for the same equipment than you guys
'pondside' have to (excuse me for that, I had to get it in sooner or later - there's a bit of
Monty Python in all of us lot, you know!) so I don't really know what you'd pay for one of these,
but my guess is that it's within, or not far away from, your price range.

The only possible fly-in-the-ointment is that for organ playing in particular weighted
keys are not ideal.

But you can't have everything & you did list piano as your top priority -
speaking from experience it's much easier to adapt to playing organ-style on a
weighted keyboard than trying to play piano on an unweighted one.

The other route you could go down, of course, is to get two seperate keyboards...
a dedicated stand-alone electric piano + a smaller synth for your other sounds -
but that opens up a whole new can of worms!!!

John.


.

 

[meisenhower]

I don't see where a new a Motif XS8 can be had for $2000 USD. Typical street price is around $3,000 and on super sale maybe $2,700+tax.

As a long time Yammy guy, I agree that the XS8 is at the top of the heap, but given the OP's requirements (both piano and organ), perhaps a MO8 and a synth with more "organ-like" action may be more appropriate and a better use of the budget. As both a pianist and a Hammond B3 player, it is very difficult to play in a typical B3 style on a fully weighted piano keyboard (not to mention, a Hammond B3 has a "waterfall" keyboard). A Nord Electro 2 leaps to mind as a great choice as an additional keyboard (with some of the best rhodes, wurly and B3 sounds around).

With respect to the OP's comment about the S90, it is a fine keyboard, but has been replace with the S90ES (also basically with Motif ES sounds, minus a sequencer, and a different keybed). At $1995, I don't really understand why this particular model is still being offered, as it's more expensive than a MO8, with less features, but more polyphony and the S700 Grand Piano sample. It's been touted as a Digital Piano/Synth combo. Great unit, but I fully expect it to be discontinued, given the other offerings in the Yamaha line.

Getting to the original Motif XS8 recommendation. As amazing as the XS8 is, it simply so much more technology than is required for the job. Why pay for sequencing and sampling when it's not even remotely part of the equation, even though it's the best of the best?

Decisions, decision?

 

[jpscoey]

'
Hi Meisenhower, how's things with you?

Yes the price issue is something I can only speculate on, so I'll take your word for it.

One of the reasons I veered towards the XS8 is because I have some experience in
this area and , bearing in mind what Michael said about the 'compromise' issue it
could well be the case (running a studio) that, at some point, the capabilities of the XS could prove to be a welcome asset - not forgetting those superb sounds of course!


.

 

[kanthos]

Another possibility I'd suggest is a Nord Stage EX 73 and an M50 88. The Stage 73 will give you all the Nord Electro 2 has and more, since it supports Nord's newer piano library sample format, so you'll get fantastic-sounding grand and upright pianos and a very simple-to-use interface. (The normal Stage 73 would work as well; the EX is a recent release with extra memory for Nord-supplied piano samples; nothing else is different). This will also give you fantastic B3, Vox, and Farfisa organ emulation with drawbars (unlike your average workstation, which will give you just a few organ sounds to choose from), great wurlitzer and rhodes sounds, and a basic subtractive synth.

What you won't get are strings, brass, arpeggiated synth sounds, woodwinds, and that kind of thing, which is why I recommend the M50.

If you're going with two keyboards, you'll really want one that's weighted and one that's not. A Nord Stage 76 or 88 (the weighted models) and an M50 61 or 76 will be cheaper than the Nord Stage 73 and M50 88, but this will give you a good weighted keyboard and a synth action keyboard; if you get the Nord Stage 73 and M50 88, you'll have a good weighted keyboard and one that gives you a great organ feel; other than the Nord Electro 2 & 3 and the Nord C1 (their dual-manual organ), I haven't felt anything like the Nord Stage 73.

Someone previously mentioned the Nord Electro 2 (or, the new Electro 3). I easily recommend the Nord Stage over the Electro 2, since the Stage has more effects, the synth engine, and lets you play up to 2 synths, 2 pianos/electric pianos, and a 2-manual organ at the same time, while the Electro only lets you play one of those. The Electro 2 doesn't support the newer Nord Piano Library either. If you go with just an Electro 2 and a lower-end workstation, you won't have a really great piano sound.

With the Electro 3, it's a bit of a tossup. I don't think the Electro 3 lets you layer sounds like the Stage does (although I haven't found anything that explicitly confirms or denies that), but the Electro 3 *does* support the Nord Piano Library and has all the effects of the Stage, plus you can upload data from the Nord Sample Library (including a lot of sounds they sampled in-house from the Mellotron), and, I think, make your own samples using their software to upload to the Electro 3. My preference is still for the Stage, since I have a Korg TR 61 with sampling to compliment it, but it's up to you. Maybe playing multiple instruments on the Stage at once doesn't matter to you since you're wanting this for a studio.


Yes, these options are both pricy, but the quality will be incredible.


Another combination would be a good semi-weighted controller keyboard (I recommend the M-Audio Axiom 61 here; it also has a great feel, although not as good as the Electro and Stage 73), the Electro 2 Rack, and a Motif XS 88. This will also give you a wide variety of sounds, great organs, pianos (I'd use the best one on the Motif over the Electro 2), electric pianos, and all the synths and other acoustic instruments from the Motif, and you'd still have both weighted and semi-weighted keyboards.

 

[meisenhower]

Kanthos:

While your suggestions are quite excellent, all of the combinations you mention far and away exceed a $2000 USD budget.

The street prices (new, in USD) of all the mentioned suggestions are roughly:

M50-88 - $1800
M50-61 - $1100
Nord Stage EX88 - $3500
Nord Stage EX76 - $3200
Nord Stage EX73 - $2700
Nord Electro 2 61 - $1000
Nord Electro 3 61 - US price not announced, but expected around $2000
Yamaha MO8 - $1300

So here's the basic combo prices that have been suggested:

M50-88 + Nord Stage EX73 = $4500
M50-61 + Nord Stage EX88 = $4600
M50-61 + Nord Stage EX76 = $4300
MO8 + Nord Electro2 61 = $2300

The big issue with Nord's weighted keyboards are they're EXPENSIVE, really EXPENSIVE. I'm not suggesting that they're not worth the money, but budget has to be considered.

If I was in that $2K budget range (and remember, the OP's original budget request was $1k USD for a good piano, rhodes, wurley and B3 sound and weighted action), it would be a no brainer for me to do the MO8 and an Electro 2 61.

Why? MO8 has all the bases covered pretty well with the Motif ES sounds (not all, but many) from acoustic pianos, strings, brass, synth and percussion sounds. The 88 key weighed action is quite good for the vast majority of players. For a multi function workstation, the MO8 is pretty complete. I think the Yamaha Grand's and E. Pianos stack up quite well against the new Nord's, so no be benefit for one over the other. It's where the organs come into play that the Nord's have it all over Yamaha.

The Nord Electro 2 61 is inexpensive ($999) for what it gives you. The Rhodes and Wurleys are as good as they come, and when midi'd to a weighted keyboard (like the MO8), the realism is frightening when compared to a real Rhodes (and I've compared this to my Rhodes 73 MK1 Stage). Add in the Organ sounds, and the B3 emulation with waterfall, keyclick, distortion and all the other Hammond bells and whistles, and it's the complete package.

These are all very personal choices, and if cost were no object, it would certainly make the decision process easier. Given the budget constraints given, I don't see many other options on the horizon (unless going to the USED market and then some of the above choices are still out of reach).

Your mileage may vary.

 

[mdloomis]

Hey, meisenhower and kanthos, thanks for chiming in.

speaking from experience it's much easier to adapt to playing organ-style on a weighted keyboard than trying to play piano on an unweighted one

.

As both a pianist and a Hammond B3 player, it is very difficult to play in a typical B3 style on a fully weighted piano keyboard …

I'm starting to believe I may really need two keyboards here. If players prefer weighted action for piano and non-weighted for organ, why force one or the other (or both) into something less than optimal? As a player myself (guitar) I know the last thing I want to do is to be fighting my instrument. Again, this is just a slightly different take on the compromise issue we were discussing earlier.

If I framed my question slightly differently and did decide to purchase two instruments instead of one, it then seems to make sense to focus one on piano sounds (weighted) and get everything else in the other (un-weighted or semi-weighted).

Coincidentally, on the recommendation of a buddy, I was checking out the Nord stuff online last night. It seems the real strong points of the Nord are the B-3 and electric piano sounds.

Thanks again for all you input. I continue to consider your guidance very helpful.

Michael

 

[kanthos]

Yeah, I was well aware that I was well over the budget. I did think about the Electro 2 and the MO8; I just wasn't sure how good the piano sound is on the MO8, and I know it's not that good on the Electro 2 (a friend of mine is a pro musician around Toronto, and he has the Electro 2 and has complained numerous times about the quality of the piano sound). I *have* tried an MO6 (MO8 with the lighter-weight keys) and was really impressed, but I didn't evaluate its piano sound since I already had a Nord Stage and didn't care what the MO8 had in that regard. If it's got a good acoustic piano sound, this combination may be the one to go with.

The only other option around the same price range is to go for the Electro 3 instead of the Electro 2; it'll cost more, but the extra features may well be worth it. Here's a summary of what's new. I'd be willing to bet that the piano sound you get from the Electro 3 will be much better than the MO8.

Regardless, an MO8 and Electro 2 or 3 is probably the best choice given your budget.


I wouldn't think too much about having organ on a semi-weighted instrument and piano on a weighted instrument; it's easy enough to have the keyboard player choose the keyboard they'll play because of touch and use MIDI to get the sound you want out of it. I'd think that if you have both weights and a good selection of sounds between the two, you're set.

 

[mdloomis]

Looks like I will be picking up a Nord Electro 2 61 to fulfill one part of my studio keyboard needs (organs and EP). I'll see if I can locate a clean unit on the second-hand market first. (Already posted on this forum in the Classified section.) Otherwise, I'll buy new.

The Ac. Piano sounds will have to wait a little while. Even though exceptional piano sounds are a high priority for me, I have a more immediate need for a Hammond-like track in one of my current sessions. So the Nord is coming first.

I want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread.

Thank you, jpscoey.
Thank you, meisenhower.
Thank you, kanthos.

For a guitar player wandering into new territory, your input was invaluable in helping me formulate in my own mind the right parameters for making an informed decision. Perhaps I can return the favor someday if you have studio-related questions.

Thanks again.

 

[jpscoey]

'

You're very welcome - I'm pleased that you found this forum of use!

I'd just like to wish you all the best & I hope your studio proves to be a success.

Cheers,

John.

 

[meisenhower]

First, your welcome!!!

These forums are such great sources of info and it really can make life easier when spending considerable money on equipment, hearing from those that actually own it (instead of the person getting a commission from your purchase).

Second, congratulations on your Nord purchase. You won't regret it and it will certainly take care of your Hammond and E. Piano sounds. The Nord's acoustic piano is the weak point (but oddly enough, when controlled via a good weighted dynamic controller, it is actually usable, not great but certainly usable).

Best of luck on the studio and feel free to post some tracks to let us hear how great things are sounding.

Ray

 

[kanthos]

Yeah, good luck! I hope I wasn't too crazy recommending stuff way out of your budget; my thought is that you can sometimes increase your spending to get the right thing; it's not always best to get the cheapest tool. Also, being aware of more options can help you narrow down what you *really* want; sometimes the initial assumptions you make are too limiting, and taking a step back helps you really understand what you want.

You'll really enjoy the Electro, especially since you're not expecting it to have a great piano sound and going to be disappointed later. The one thing it does that I wish my Nord Stage does is have a number of drawbar positions in a single preset. The Stage only has 2, the Electro has 8 or 9, I think, which means you don't have to manipulate drawbars by hand (slower than on a real B3 since they're digital, not physical) or that you don't have to switch presets to get a different audio sound (which has a delay in the sound).

Good luck,
Mike

 

[mdloomis]

Hearing the three of you discuss the options was exactly what I needed to help me make my decision.

...my thought is that you can sometimes increase your spending to get the right thing; it's not always best to get the cheapest tool. Also, being aware of more options can help you narrow down what you *really* want; sometimes the initial assumptions you make are too limiting, and taking a step back helps you really understand what you want.

This is exactly right. Sometimes you don't exactly know what you want! That was certainly the case with me.

Thanks again for everything.

Michael