Waveform 12 Pro - midi from Yamaha DGX 670 - Newbie to the DAW

[MiddleC]

I'm just now starting to experiment with a DAW, Waveform 12 pro. I've loaded up a file and have some immediate surprises.

I have a 10 track midi that I downloaded from the DGX 670. This song (Claire de Lune) has multiple tempos, and different keys through the song. It is 76 measures long, with time signature of 9/8. I will say that in fact somehow during my various passes at recording the song, It does have tempo settings (1 at the wrong place) in the song. Using the Song Creator on the Yamaha has ways to set tempo, but I'm thinking messing with that is what screwed it up. So I figured using a DAW would be better.

I imported the midi, along with the tempo (it asked if it should import the tempo). What I see is:

• Assuming that Bars in the DAW means measures, it shows 32 1/2 , not 76
• Time signature did not come in, it shows 4/4. So I was thinking if I changed it to 9/8 that would correct the measures. Nope
• It did not bring in instruments, although each track is named after the instrument that was used on the Yamaha

Before I go nuts making changes as I attack the learning curve of the DAW, I'm hoping I can get some general guidance here.

Naturally there are things that I hope/plan to do in the future with the DAW, such as working with volumes of the various instruments. But right now my goal is to get the song with correct tempos at correct measures, having it be he correct number of measures.

I also have an important question regarding instruments: Let's say I make just a couple changes, and export it. Will the midi still have the instruments that were there when I imported it, and the DGX 670 recognize that? There is a Sysex file that came in with the import. I'm not touching that, and frankly I'm not sure what that is yet.

What's your thoughts/suggestions?

 

[happyrat1]

Your problem is entirely specific to the DAW and the keyboard involved.

The crux of the biscuit is that the software is doing a poor job of translating the key signatures, tempos, etc because most of these MIDI to Notation programs have very poor understanding of the nuances of written music unless you spend a fortune on a dedicated program like Sibelius.

As a result the software's output is a "best guess" at what the MIDI codes really mean?

While MIDI can be considered a superset of music scripting types, while it expresses a lot of minute details as codes, the interpretation of those codes is either a guess or a default answer. For instance. There is no code for a key signature in MIDI so flip a coin.

Personally I've had experience with Rosegarden, Anvil Studio, Cakewalk and Logic Pro.

Sorry to say I've never messed with the DAW you named nor am I familiar with the MIDI implementation chart of your DGX, but somewhere in the transfer data is lost which you must recover by your own eyes and hand.

 

[MiddleC]

Your problem is entirely specific to the DAW and the keyboard involved.

The crux of the biscuit is that the software is doing a poor job of translating the key signatures, tempos, etc because most of these MIDI to Notation programs have very poor understanding of the nuances of written music unless you spend a fortune on a dedicated program like Sibelius.

As a result the software's output is a "best guess" at what the MIDI codes really mean?

While MIDI can be considered a superset of music scripting types, while it expresses a lot of minute details as codes, the interpretation of those codes is either a guess or a default answer. For instance. There is no code for a key signature in MIDI so flip a coin.

Personally I've had experience with Rosegarden, Anvil Studio, Cakewalk and Logic Pro.

Sorry to say I've never messed with the DAW you named nor am I familiar with the MIDI implementation chart of your DGX, but somewhere in the transfer data is lost which you must recover by your own eyes and hand.

Thanks for the input.

What I find interesting, or I guess just don't understand why, even after I set the time signature correct, it makes 0 difference in the measures. I'd think it would at least be able to determine the beats, and apply the time signature to that. Leaves me feeling that the DAW is a complete waste.

I do have Cakewalk downloaded. I'm guessing it is a free version. I'll try to install it and give it a try. I suspect it will be a whole new learning curve.

Thanks again.

 

[MiddleC]

Quick update, I got Bandlab going, and imported the song. It has correct number of measures, or at least close. Looks like tempo and time sig wrong. Seems same tempo all the way through, although the song is recorded with 5 different tempos. Doesn't have the Systrk, which I'm not sure what that is, but I'm thinking it's something about the Yamaha.

Nothing indicating which track is what kind of instrument.

It's beginning to feel that working with a DAW offers no pluses for me. But I'll experiment some.

My expectations were to load up a song I created/recorded, and modify volumes and things to give it some more expression. But I'm feeling like I'll just mess everything up, given the DAW can't see what it was in the first place, let alone the fact I don't know what I'm doing in a DAW yet.

 

[happyrat1]

MIDI codes play fast and loose with tempos and time signatures.

I do know that cakewalk can change tempos in creation and playback of a script, but in your case it's not smart enough to depict that in the graphic display.

These don't really matter to a MIDI device because it's always based on a single MIDI clock frequency and note data is synced to the computer and keyboard's clock speeds.

With cakewalk, however, you can manually edit and save the tempo codes for each measure if you so desire.

I'm not certain whether or not it can export them in actual MIDI format or if it's even possible with SMF files but cakewalk uses it's own internal format for templates, worksheets and configuration files.

Do read up on INS files and search the web for one for your keyboard. It will make the entire experience 10 times more enjoyable.

 

[MiddleC]

MIDI codes play fast and loose with tempos and time signatures.

I do know that cakewalk can change tempos in creation and playback of a script, but in your case it's not smart enough to depict that in the graphic display.

These don't really matter to a MIDI device because it's always based on a single MIDI clock frequency and note data is synced to the computer and keyboard's clock speeds.

With cakewalk, however, you can manually edit and save the tempo codes for each measure if you so desire.

I'm not certain whether or not it can export them in actual MIDI format or if it's even possible with SMF files but cakewalk uses it's own internal format for templates, worksheets and configuration files.

Do read up on INS files and search the web for one for your keyboard. It will make the entire experience 10 times more enjoyable.

Well I did take it a step further with Cakewalk and had an interesting result there. When I loaded the midi file into Cakewalk, and just like the other one, it didn't have any time signature or tempos. In addition to that it did not even bring in the names of the tracks which in the other case was the instruments I had used to create the file.

So I'm sitting here with a midi file I pulled down not showing anything about what instruments each track supposed to be, no time signature, no tempo.

So I simply set the time signature, and entered the tempo at each frame for which the tempo changed. I exported the file to a usb, took the USB to my Yamaha and brought the Yamaha up and tried to play it. What I got was like a ding. Nothing else whatsoever.

I'm pretty sure that also it did not bring in the key for the song. There are several key changes during the course of that song. Although I didn't chase that down yet as I wanted to just see if I could edit the tempo and get it back in and have it working.

I'm pretty dismayed. It's like I have to completely recreate the file almost in order for it to do any midi editing on it. Comes in with no tempo no time signature no key. Wow.

 

[happyrat1]

The instrument information in a MIDI file is GM soundset for a MIDI type 0 file and GS or XG on MIDI type 1.

If you want to save your instrument list with anything else you have to use a Cakewalk INS (Instrument) file specific for your keyboard and save it as WKS or whatever format Cakewalk file your version is using.

Like I said, read up on Cakewalk INS files.

There are all sorts of these files both ready made in the cakewalk download itself and uploaded by users to cakewalk and other forums. And if you can't find one there are instructions out there on how to roll your own.

I've uploaded quite a few of my own over the years, but I no longer work with PCs.

Start using google to educate yourself about hexadecimal number systems and applying them to MIDI codes.

There is no painless way to do this without sweating the entire learning curve.

 

[MiddleC]

I appreciate your advice. It's all quite a surprise to me, obviously.

I have been checking out video tutorials. Of course I haven't found any that demonstrate the path I'm in. They cover creating your own music in the DAW as opposed to bringing in a song from a keyboard and tweaking that and bringing back into the keyboard.

I will do some more googling, and ultimately need to decide if my intended use is worth what I consider a relatively steep learning curve.

 

[happyrat1]

Basically, a DAW is only a MIDI sequencer like the one in your keyboard, but with WYSIWYG editing features.

Your best option is to pick one and ignore the other depending on what you plan to do with the output file.

This is because GM XG and GSD are all semi portable files in MID or SMF format, but if you are trying to import certain specific features which only exist in the keyboard OR the computer software, your only chance of file portability is slim to none.

Note data is the simplest data, and MIDI has displayed as very robust collection of commands over the years, but if you want to save motion controls or multiple banks of sounds then you are in the territory of proprietary codes.

If you want a graphical way to add or delete notes on a piano roll or a score page then a DAW should be your choice.

If you've struggled along with the keyboard editing features over the years and have mastered that method I can understand your reluctance to learn a new method.

But remember, with a DAW you can add virtual instruments, wave audio files and manipulate key changes with a few mouse clicks and to me seems more powerful than most onboard sequencers I've ever seen/

 

[RedEyeC]

Not familiar with Yamaha Workstations - but am with Roland, specifically the Fantom. When I've created songs on my sampler that change time signatures - I leave the ticker at 4/4 and ignore the bell count on 1. The songs that I've created that change tempo - I make an entirely new song of the part with the new tempo, then combine both (or several) of the songs together with my software program. It's just easier. Good luck -

 

[Alan]

If you haven't already figured this out, In Cakewalk with song loaded, find Preferences, you can type the letter p on computer keyboard, a window should pop up that has Audio, MIDI, etc down the left side. In this window under MIDI devices click there look for your Yamaha, click there to put it to input or output depending on your needs.
That may help you get a little further along. I'm no expert, I struggle with DAW and midi a lot. Then there are good youtube videos for Cakewalk such as Creative Sauce and he has some beginners lessons there. Hope it helps.

 

[MiddleC]

Really great info, folks. I really appreciate it.