Yamaha M08 vs Roland Fantom X8

[enarchay]

First, thanks for all the responses to my previous post.

Short recap. I've been playing guitar for about three years and I want to learn how to play keyboard/piano. I want to get something that will both achieve what I'm looking for and last me a long time, since I've gone through some pretty junky guitars until I was fully satisfied and I don't want to make the same mistake with keyboards.

I’ve been researching keyboards non-stop for the last few days. I was looking for something that would be efficiently suitable for progressive rock and metal (Opeth, DT, Abigail Williams, Porcupine Tree, etc.), but also classical music. I wasn’t planning on spending more than 1000 dollars, but I’ve found [FONT=&quot][/FONT]that there is no way I’m going to get all I want with that limit. Slightly over my original price limit, I was considering getting the Kawai MP5, because while it is a very good stage piano, it also offers various other instruments and some real time controls (that were absent from some cheaper Yamaha digital pianos I tried). However, upon further consideration, I decided that the MP5 is not for me, because if I’m going to spend that much money, I might as well be sure I’m getting all I want; after all, the MP5 is a stage piano, not a workstation. So, I’ve decided that if I’m going to make a purchase, I might as well just go the extra mile and get a keyboard that offers me all of what I want and will not need to be replaced as I progress. The Yamaha MM8, at 1000 dollars, might have been a good option, but I read a lot of negative reviews, and it doesn't seem worth the price. Thus, it comes down to the Yamaha M08 and the Roland Fantom X8.

Obviously, I would much more prefer the Yamaha M08 on the basis of price alone. I can get a floor-model Yamaha M08 at my local Guitar Center for 1,350 dollars (appealingly, right on time for Christmas), whereas I would have to order the Roland Fantom X8 online for as high as 1,995. However, there are some things that bother me about the Yamaha M08, and I do not want to be left with the gnawing feeling that for all the money spent, I could have done much better for little more.

First, the M08 has balanced hammer keys, not graded hammer keys. This wouldn’t bother me so much if it were not for the fact that many of Yamaha’s cheaper models come standard with the graded keys, including the MM8 I was considering until I read the reviews. Maybe this isn't a big deal, but I thought it was important to take into consideration.

Second, the M08 only has 64-note polyphony. This may not bother me now, but it could become a problem as I begin experimenting with layering a bunch of different sounds. This is one of the main complaints I’ve read.

The Roland, in contrast, has progressive hammer keys, and much more polyphony. In addition, the Roland appears to have a much more appealing interface, a better location for the pitch bender, and the D-beam, which could come in handy.

So, my question is, how exactly does the M08 compare with the Fantom X8? Is the M08 overall better for the price? Or is the Fantom X8 worth the extra money? Also, for any who know much about the M08, just to be clear, it does have buttons (similar to made-for-amp guitar pedals) for storing for later use and selecting in real time instruments and the effects I have applied to those instruments, correct?

I’m not even sure if I could afford the Fantom X8 if I wanted to (at least not new), but I also don’t want to consider buying the M08 until I’m absolutely sure it is worth every cent. What would you do in my situation?

Any advice is appreciated.

P.S. If you do recommend the M08, do you think 1,350 dollars for a floor model (50 dollars less than if it were new) is a good price? My local Guitar Center does not have any brand new M08s in stock, so I would have to order it if I planned on getting it new. Also, do you think I could convince them to lower the price a bit more? Or do you think that is already a good deal?

 

[evergreenthompson]

First the price of the MO8 floor model. It's at least $70 too high. You can get B-stock online for $1279.99, which is essentially what you'd be getting from a floor model, except that you'd have to double-check everything as it is packed up to make sure you are getting everything that is supposed to be in the box.

Graded vs balanced hammer action. Unless you play a lot of piano (doesn't sound like you do... yet! ), I don't think you'll even notice the difference. I'm just getting back to playing keys myself. Although my keyboard sports a graded hammer keyboard, frankly, I can't say I notice any difference between the low keys vs the high keys.

After taking a quick look at product info (GC and mfr sites), it looks like the Fantom X8 is a step up from the MO8. So the question then becomes whether the extra features are worth $500-700 to you. One feature you specifically mentioned is MO8's 64- vs X8's 128-voice polyphony. If the higher polyphony is very important, you'll want to spend the extra cash. Otherwise, most of the other X8's extra features might be handled for the MO8 by software running on your computer.

Something else to consider is cost of all the other goodies you may need to buy. You will be surprised how fast this part adds up. Amp or studio monitors? (You've probably got that covered.) A rack or table? Perhaps a bench? You might also need an external audio box (or better internal sound card) for your computer. Will your computer need a little upgrading (more RAM, faster processor) to acceptably run the DAW software you'll inevitably start playing with? Is the DAW software even supported on your computer's operating system? (E.g., don't assume the latest release will run on your edition of XP/Vista.)

Have I sufficiently muddied the waters further?

 

[kanthos]

I haven't tried the Fantom series, but I was seriously considering buying the MO6 (and if I hadn't gotten a good deal on a Korg TR-61 yesterday thanks to a price match, I'd have gotten the MO6; I liked them both in different ways, so I let price make the decision for me).

Even from the demos on Roland's site, I'm not too impressed with the sounds of the acoustic instruments. In general, Yamaha tends to do acoustic instruments best and Korg tends to have better synths. I'm not quite sure where Roland fits in; probably by coming in at a lower pricepoint or adding other features that Korg doesn't have.

Anyway, I was quite impressed with the MO6. It seemed easy to use, and I like the way the MO6 handles talking to other MIDI devices. Really, it depends what you'd like. The MO6/MO8 engine is based on the Motif ES engine, which was, I think, the contemporary to the Fantom X series (just as the Motif XS is the contemporary to the Fantom G series).

I agree with evergreenthompson's comment about the hammer action: if you're not a pianist with a strong classical or jazz background, it'll take you years to be good enough in that respect to notice the difference. I play piano on a semi-weighted Nord Stage that's built to feel similar to a B3 organ, and while I notice the difference between that and a concert grand (I've been playing for 22 years, and started with 8 years of classical lessons), I'm quite happy with it.

As for polyphony, 64 is a fair bit. I was playing through various combis on the TR yesterday and found that pretty much all the factory ones used 8 parts at once. Playing with both hands, at least 5 notes at once, and using some sustain to make bigger pads, I didn't really notice any note dropoff from running out of polyphony (generally, keyboards silence the earliest-played notes when there's too many notes sounding at once). With double the parts, yes, that could be a problem, but it may not, depending on what you do. With good choice of effects and such, you probably don't need to make a 16-layer pad and play 10 notes at once (minimum of 160-note polyphony), since the difference will be really subtle at best. That might make a difference on a recording but will probably be lost at a gig when played over the house speakers.

More typically, you'll want to have some pads combined with a lead (or, alternately, a lead with some kind of electric piano/organ/acoustic piano to make a groove). Your lead shouldn't use a lot of polyphony because you'll likely be playing only a couple notes at once on each of the layers used to make it up (and you can even force that by making the notes for each voice in your lead play only one tone at once), so with say an 8-layer lead and 4-layer pad, you might have 3 notes at a time on the pad, for a minimum 12 voices, and another 8 voices for the lead. You can make the pad thicker or play more voices, and some of the sounds you use might be in stereo (using 2 voices instead of 1) or use multiple elements at once (a piano might use one element for the notes plus another for the other noises that you hear when you play a piano, for example), but you're going to need to be doing some complex stuff to hit the 64-voice polyphony boundary if you've given your sounds some careful thought. As a beginning keyboard player, it's probably safe to say that it'll be a while before you'll be dealing with this.

Anyway, if it was me, I'd buy the MO8, but that's partially because I don't really like Roland's sound and partially because it's that much cheaper. I was mainly trying to point out that the MO8 isn't as bad a decision as it might seem.

Good luck!

 

[enarchay]

Your comments are very helpful, but I have another question maybe one of you can help me with.

In comparing the X8 with the M08, one thing I noticed is that the M08 appears to have multi-track volume adjustment, whereas the X8 does not. Is this the case, and if so, do you think it adds to the M08s appeal by comparison?

Another thing, does the X8 have a modulation wheel?

I don’t have an X8 to try out, so can anyone help me understand the big differences between the M08 and X8s layout/interface/buttons, pros and cons?

Another important question. How exactly does B-stock work? Is it very risky? I noticed some cheaper B-stock items on musiciansfriend that might be worth considering.

 

[evergreenthompson]

Multi-track volume adjustment. I think the X8 has this feature for MIDI tracks. Double-check with the owner's manuals, etc. on Roland's web site. One thing about keyboards is that the manufactuers are pretty good about making all the manuals available for download.

Modulation wheel. I think the control to the left of the keyboard can act as a modulation control. The owner's manual, etc. will tell you for sure.

B-stock. Generally, B-stock is as good as new. Most are nothing more than customer buy-try-returns. The seller should tell you about any cosmetic defects. You should get everything you would get in an original factory-sealed box, including the full warranty of a brand new product. If you buy from a reputable dealer (I assume Musician's Friend is), there shouldn't be any extra risk over buying new.

 

[enarchay]

I called back Guitar Center to get some more details on the floor model M08. This time I got in contact with the manager and he said he would match the musiciansfriend with coupon price of 1,200, perhaps a bit lower. He said this keyboard has only been in his store two months and is in good condition. I’m going to check it out first, of course, but based on these details do you think I should just go for it? Unfortunately, I think the X8 is too far over my budget, and it would be nice to have the keyboard by Christmas instead of having to wait to order it.

 

[evergreenthompson]

I can't tell you which to pick, as you ultimately have to decide. But it sounds like you might have already made the decision.

$1200 or even lower isn't bad. See how low he will go!

Before heading to the store, snag the MO6/MO8's owner's manual, and print page 6 for the list of what should be in the box. Make sure you get the power adapter (PA-5D)! Also print page 231 for the spec sheet. Don't forget to consider what other accessories you may need, in case you don't already have them.... audio cables (the keyboard probably uses unbalanced outputs), monitors, USB cable ("A" plug on one end, "B" plug on the other), etc.

Good luck, and keep us posted!

 

[kanthos]

I was asking on some Yamaha forums (www.motifator.com) about adjusting the volume of multiple tracks at once, and no one answered. It might be possible to do something clever with MIDI if you're playing a song or pattern in Master Mode (somewhat unintuitive, but songs and patterns are the only way to get up to 16 different parts playing at once, and master mode is what you'd want to use for live playback and to control other connected MIDI devices). Barring anything like that, you're limited to having each slider control volume for only one part at once. In a performance, there are 4 parts; in a song or pattern, there are 16, but the sliders only control parts 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, and 13-16, and you switch between blocks of 4 some other way (i.e. you can make slider 1 control the volume for part 9, slider 2 control part 10, etc.).

If you mainly play in a band, you'll probably want to make sure you have volumes of individual parts adjusted properly at home before you get together with the rest of your band; trying to adjust volumes for multiple parts at once is probably going to be too hard to pull off live without some clever MIDI programming.

On the other hand, what you might want to do is load up 16 different parts but mute some and not others. Most keyboards don't have patch remain (which is where if I change presets, any notes that are still sounding continue to sound as they would when playing the old preset, until I release the keys triggering those notes), and most keyboards have a slight but noticeable delay when switching patches. What you often want to do is have one preset for a song but have some way to mute or unmute voices within that preset. For example, you might start a song playing piano and strings, need a pad later, and a lead sound made up of a few voices after that. On the MO8, you can do this by using song scenes (remember that you'll want to use a pattern or song played in master mode to get the most out of the MO8; if this is still confusing, let me know; I don't own the keyboard but figured out from the manual exactly how I'd want to play it). A song scene is a snapshot of the settings at one point in a song, and there are up to 5 per song/pattern. What you can do is have one song scene where the piano and string voices are playing and the others are muted, a second scene with pads playing and everythign else muted, and a third scene with all your lead voices playing and the rest muted. You can switch between scenes with a single button press, and the transition is instant and smooth.