Yamaha PSR E323 MIDI-USB cable and power button problem.

[Nasedo]

As it's my first post in here, I would like to welcome all of you.

Before I start, I have to mention I'm amateur - not a pro, so please forgive me if any of my questions seems naive to people with a lot of experience.

One of my keyboards, PSR E323 was planned to use as "MIDI player" - of course not only for this, but I do really like listen MIDI playing from keyboard itself. Please don't be mislead as another keyboard (443) is located in my other home, far far away, and now I want to focus on 323.
I knew, as manual says:

"A Yamaha UX16 or similar USB-MIDI interface (sold separately) will be necessary for MIDI connection between the PSR-E323/YPT-320 and a USB-equipped computer."

I thought, as this manual has many years, now I will be able to buy any cable and problem solved. I bought cheap cable (attachment) and as you probably already knew it, it's not working.
I was planning to use this cable only to transfer MIDI files into keyboard and play them. As I failed, I thought I may be able to use this cable and use my 323 as MIDI keyboard, but despite many trials, using various software and platforms (PC / Mac) data being send from keyboard to computer is not exactly what I'm playing. Could anyone explain for me why this is happening?
I understand, buying UX16 cable will solve everything, but the cheapest one, I can find costs £49.99 and I can't really afford it, as I paid for my E323 £40.

I read about "power button" and it looks like it's common problem when pressing to turn on keyboard, it takes a while, display is flashing and eventually keyboard starts. I can't turn it off using power button.
I have this problem two or three years already, and I can live with that - but if there's a solution (simple one) I will be happy to know the answer. And finally most important question will power button problem will cause (eventually) more major problems, or this problem is stand alone and shouldn't affect anything else.

I will really appreciate your help. Thank you in advance.

 

[Biggles]

If memory serves me the MIDI in a 323 is not exactly class compliant.

The current E 3 series is the 363 so your 323 is quite a few years old and Yamaha E series keyboards are not exactly built for longevity.

If you feel confident you can open up the keyboard, check the security of connectors and give switches a quick squirt of electronic contact cleaner (which WD40 is not) to see if this clears and debris causing the power switch issues. Do disconnect the power supply before attempting any invasive activity.

A Computer USB soundcard interface like a Behringer 204HD may work as it is connected to a keyboard also via a USB connection socket on said keyboard.

The downside is cost so maybe a dedicated MIDI keyboard controller could be the way to go.

 

[Nasedo]

As I thought, it will be sort of complication to achieve what I wanted. Anyway, I found relatively cheap E423 (£100) and I replace my old one E323.
I do realise it will be slight worse than E443 but at least normal USB connection as well as using Yamaha Musicsoft Downloader will work for me without any issues.
Thank you @Biggles for your most appreciated help and hopefully I will be visiting this forum more often.

 

[Biggles]

The 4 series is a quantum leap in features and functionality over a 3 series so you probably got a very reasonable buy.

Good luck using it.

 

[Nasedo]

The 4 series is a quantum leap in features and functionality over a 3 series so you probably got a very reasonable buy.

Good luck using it.

I know that, as I have E443 already, and I thought my old one 323 will have some more life with me, but apparently time for changes.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I have a YPT-400, which is the same thing as a PSR-E403 except for the model name (the YPT-400 is the "export" version, whatever that means), so it's two models prior to the PSR-E423.

I also have a PSR-E443.

The PSR-E423 should give you great results-- more voices than what the PSR-E323 has, but only slightly less than what the PSR-E443 has.

 

[Nasedo]

@SeaGtGruff as you replied for my two (first) posts, you briefly know my story. Two homes, big distance and two different keyboards. I'm not focusing on PSR-E443 because for my needs is the best keyboard I ever had. I have no problems, no questions at the moment and as you noticed, I just focused on my PSR-E323. I thought it may be a cheap way to make this keyboard useful, and achieve something - but I was wrong. If I will be lucky enough today I will have PSR-E423 and this keyboard will suits my needs.

One question about PSR-E423, as I wasn't able to find any conclusive information, and I'm not owner of this keyboard yet. Is it possible there's a little amount of flash storage (more than 1MB less than 2MB) which gives me ability to copy and store in keyboard not so many MIDI files.

I wonder (as I don't have experience), when I will finally have 423 will I be able to play (or listen - more precisely) MIDI stored on computer, but played on keyboard? Any easy way to achieve it, if it's possible?

 

[SeaGtGruff]

Yes, you should be able to transfer both MIDI song files and Yamaha style files to the PSR-E423's internal memory by connecting it to a computer with a USB cable and using the Yamaha Musicsoft Downloader program. It also works with the PSR-E323 and E443, so maybe you're already familiar with it. But unlike the PSR-E443, the E423 doesn't have a port for plugging in a USB thumb drive. But if you've got your keyboard and computer connected together by USB, you can also play MIDI files directly on your computer and send the MIDI to your keyboard so it generates all the sounds.

 

[Nasedo]

I'm familiar with YMD, and I know I would be able to transfer MIDI files into E323, but I will have to but relatively expensive UX16 interface. Considering it's cost, better solution for me is buy E423.
I know, E423 is not supporting USB thumb drives, but at least offers normal USB connection which is requiring only driver installation.
I never had a chance to play (for listening purposes) MIDI files from computer on keyboard so I'm looking forward to do this.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

The results of playing MIDI files from computer to keyboard can potentially vary from playing them directly on the keyboard, depending on what the MIDI player is capable of, whether it has any special settings for MIDI message filters that you need to adjust, and what types of messages are in the MIDI file.

For instance, some DAWs or MIDI programs aren't programmed to handle SysEx messages; they'll actually discard any SysEx messages they encounter while loading a MIDI file or receiving MIDI data that's being streamed to the DAW. Ableton Live and PreSonus Studio One are two examples of "big name" DAWs that do this, as well as my own favorite DAW, Acoustica Mixcraft. Yamaha and other keyboard manufacturers use SysEx messages for selecting the Reverb Type, Chorus Type, DSP Type, and certain other "system" settings, so a DAW or MIDI player that doesn't transmit SysEx messages when playing back a MIDI file isn't going to be able to select the correct effects types and other system settings, which might cause the MIDI to sound a bit differently than expected when the keyboard plays the sounds.

Other DAWs have the ability to use and transmit SysEx messages, but there are usually filters in their MIDI settings which let you specify whether you want certain types of MIDI messages to be filtered out, so you might need to go into those settings and adjust them. For instance, sometimes people want to send MIDI data from a keyboard to a DAW so it can be recorded, or to play a virtual instrument plugin, but they don't want the keyboard's MIDI to make any unintended patch changes in the virtual instrument, so they'll set the filters to remove any Bank Select or Program Change messages.

And finally, there are certain types of messages, known as Meta Event messages, which can be included in MIDI files but which cannot be transmitted (streamed) over a MIDI connection, because the message status byte that indicates a Meta Event in a MIDI file has a completely different meaning (System Reset!) in streamed MIDI data. Almost all Meta Event messages are for providing information that doesn't need to be streamed anyway, such as text messages which are basically like comments in the file. And some Meta Events do affect the way the file is played back, such as setting the tempo, but the MIDI player doesn't need to send that information to a keyboard, it just needs to alter its own internal settings so it sends the MIDI Note messages at the correct moments. But there is one special type of Meta Event message known as a Sequencer-Specific message, and it's possible that a keyboard might use certain Sequencer-Specific messages to control certain features. For example, the PSR-E models use certain Sequencer-Specific messages to control Style playback when a Style is recorded as part of a User Song. So if a MIDI file includes any of these Sequencer-Specific messages, they can be used to control Style playback if the MIDI file is transferred to the keyboard's memory and played back directly on the keyboard, but they won't have any effect if the MIDI file is played back in a DAW due to the fact that the DAW can't transmit them to the keyboard.

If I'm making it sound like it's best to play MIDI files directly on a keyboard, I guess that's sometimes true. But in other cases it might be better to play MIDI files on a computer and send the MIDI to an attached keyboard. For instance, if you load a MIDI file into a DAW, you could set up each MIDI track so it gets sent to a different keyboard or synth if you wanted, such as sending the "piano" tracks to a digital piano that has exceptional piano sounds, and sending the "organ" tracks to a Hammond organ, and sending the "lead synth" tracks to an analog synth such as a Moog, or many other possibilities. For instance, if you were to connect your PSR-E323, E423, and E443 to your computer at the same time, you could set up a DAW to send some of the MIDI tracks to the E323, some to the E423, and some to the E443, all at the same time. That might sound like overkill, but consider that each of those models has a maximum polyphony of 32 notes, which isn't very much. By having the DAW control all three of your keyboards at the same time, you could have it play up to 96 notes at once, or up to 32 notes per keyboard. You might not need to have that many notes playing at the same time, but there might be times when you need more than 32 notes playing at once, since some of the notes might be playing sustained chords, or you might be layering two or more voices together to create a more complex-sounding timbre, and so on.

 

[Nasedo]

Dear @SeaGtGruff - at the beginning we may put aside transferring MIDI (as a file) into keyboard, as this process is just a "file operation", and MIDI connection is set to send / receive data (simplifying).

I must admit, for a better clarification, I newer tried to play MIDI from computer, newer used keyboard as a MIDI keyboard and never "recorded" anything as MIDI file whilst playing keyboard. I always thought I still have a time. When the time comes, I did realize I know nothing about this and I really want to do something... but as you wrote above, it's more complicated than I could ever imagine.

I'd like to focus on different separated ideas and try to understand if possible how to achieve it.

1. Let's assume, I'm playing something simple on keyboard. Simple song, one track, one instrument. As example we can use "Twinkle":

Whilst connecting my keyboard to PC I would like create MIDI file from my playing. No matter of my quality of playing or mistakes I can make, I would like to create MIDI file exactly as I played.
What software can be used for this purposes? (preferable free or not so expensive).

2. Let's imagine, I legally downloaded MIDI file called "Twinkle" and obviously can listen this "song" on my PC using any MIDI player. I know, I can transfer this file into keyboard memory, but as I asked on the beginning of this post, please do not use this option, as it's just file transfer. I want to use any software, play on computer, but as an output should be MIDI-IN in keyboard, and in real time, keyboard will play this file directly.
Is it achievable? Maybe I just assumed something what is not true and never been achievable and no one is doing anything like this, because it's pointless?

I will have some more questions, definitely later on, but now I want to understand this.

 

[Biggles]

There are free DAW’s out there with Cakewalk being the one that springs to mind and one of those that I have.

It will record what I play and uses the instrument voices that I have on my Korg keyboard, when I play back the resultant MIDI file.

Audacity is probably by far the best standalone single and multi-track recorder that is available free, it is as good as many paid for recording software that costs hundreds of dollars. I have been using Audacity for audio processing for many, many years it has great features.

A MIDI song is only essentially a database, it is a recorded series of commands and each of commands has a series of commands of its own, like note, note duration, fx, instrument voice to use etc.

When a MIDI file is played on a device other that the one it was created on it will use what is a best guess for instrument voices should the voicings that were used in its creation not be available. This is why obtaining a commercial MIDI file can and will play very differently on different keyboards and different PC’s.

Recording MIDI on a PC can use the inbuilt keyboard voicings or it can use software voicings (VST’s) that reside on the Computer.

If you checkout Native Instruments Komplete system which will give you a great idea of a MIDI controller keyboard and software solutions in one integrated system all be it at an eyewatering price.

Hope this helps or sorry if it is teaching you to suck eggs.

 

[Nasedo]

There are free DAW’s out there with Cakewalk being the one that springs to mind and one of those that I have.

It will record what I play and uses the instrument voices that I have on my Korg keyboard, when I play back the resultant MIDI file.

If I understood correctly, it's possible, but now, I need to find a way to make this possible. Maybe I missed some configuration steps or maybe some configuration needs to be done in my Keyboard (now we talking about PSR-E423). I know, I should probably start from some video tutorials, however those tutorials are saying about everything else but not that what I want.

Audacity is probably by far the best standalone single and multi-track recorder that is available free, it is as good as many paid for recording software that costs hundreds of dollars. I have been using Audacity for audio processing for many, many years it has great features.

I'm not complaining about Audacity, as I'm using this as well as you do. But... this software is "producing" different type of file, and currently I want to focus on pure MIDI (if it will be possible.

A MIDI song is only essentially a database, it is a recorded series of commands and each of commands has a series of commands of its own, like note, note duration, fx, instrument voice to use etc.

When a MIDI file is played on a device other that the one it was created on it will use what is a best guess for instrument voices should the voicings that were used in its creation not be available. This is why obtaining a commercial MIDI file can and will play very differently on different keyboards and different PC’s.

I can't agree more about the theory regarding MIDI files. I know those could be created using virtual keyboard, so the real one is not necessary. And now we can come to some kind of conclusion. I want to use real keyboard, I already owned, use it as a MIDI keyboard / MIDI controller and have ability NOT TO record audio file (like wav) but save MIDI file in way I played.

Recording MIDI on a PC can use the inbuilt keyboard voicings or it can use software voicings (VST’s) that reside on the Computer.

Good point and another conclusion. If I want to use any VST's or even sounds from DataBanks I wouldn't needed keyboard and computer + software would be sufficient. What I really want, is create MIDI file using keyboard voicing - no more, no less.

If you checkout Native Instruments Komplete system which will give you a great idea of a MIDI controller keyboard and software solutions in one integrated system all be it at an eyewatering price.

Hope this helps or sorry if it is teaching you to suck eggs.

I really and truly appreciate anything you telling me, and I'm not considering myself even as a beginner - I know my needs could be kinda special, but maybe it's because of my lack of understanding, or maybe I have to big expectations?

I'd love to use now and forever Cakewalk or any suggested software if it will be possible to achieve what I want or something similar.

 

[Nasedo]

I made first step in achieving what I want using Cakewalk. Just created simply project, one track for one instrument with following settings:



It gives me opportunity to play using keyboard and store it, as a MIDI track and what is important, to listen what I played on keyboard instead of using audio-out.
I know, it's just a small beginning and probably I've done this wrong, because when I'm changing voice on my keyboard, despite the fact I played in using first-choice-voice playback using voice as currently selected on keyboard.

I hope now I clarified better what I wanted. Thank you for your most appreciated help and attention and I will definitely ask for more of help in nearest future.

 

[Biggles]

Out of an Acorn a mighty Oak tree grows.

Glad you are making progress.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I could suggest other free, inexpensive, or downright expensive DAWs for you to try, but I think it's best to stick with one and get to know it first before you start asking yourself if you'd prefer to switch to a different one.

One thing you're going to hear about eventually is "quantization," which you might already know about from your PSR-E keyboards. This lets you choose whether or not you want the DAW to analyze each note as you're playing and recording it, then have the DAW automatically nudge the recorded note a little bit to the left (earlier than you'd played it) or to the right (later than you'd played it) so it coincides with the nearest "perfectly timed" note position. You can turn quantization on or off, adjust the size (time-wise) of the quantization interval (quarter notes, eighth notes, 16th notes, 32nd notes, etc.), or keep quantization turned off but then apply it after the fact to a selected section of your recording. Some DAWs may even let you select a section of your recording and then perform the opposite of quantization, which I think is usually called "humanization" or something like that, meaning to randomly nudge the notes a little bit left or right so they aren't so perfectly timed, which helps them sound less robotic and more like they've been played by a human.

Anyway, once you've learned how to record and play back MIDI tracks, which it seems you've done (unless they were audio tracks?), the next step is learning how to select where you want each track to be output to-- which in your case will (I assume) be to your keyboard)-- as well as which voice you want the keyboard to use for each track.

Once I've uninstalled the old trial versions of Cakewalk from before BandLab bought it, and free up enough space to install BandLab's free version, I'll see if I can help you with those next steps.

 

[Nasedo]

I could suggest other free, inexpensive, or downright expensive DAWs for you to try, but I think it's best to stick with one and get to know it first before you start asking yourself if you'd prefer to switch to a different one.

I have an access to FruityLoop (12) and Cubase 5. I didn't spent much time with those software, but it looks more complicated for me, much more complicated than Cakewalk.
I think, I will need to realise what I may want to achieve and then could ask a questions, because most of the Cakewalk functions seems a magic for me. I remember from my past first MIDI software, where just notes been placed or software from Amiga, where easily MOD files been produced. I do realise music software been neglected by me, what is resulting my lack of knowledge.

One thing you're going to hear about eventually is "quantization," which you might already know about from your PSR-E keyboards. This lets you choose whether or not you want the DAW to analyze each note as you're playing and recording it, then have the DAW automatically nudge the recorded note a little bit to the left (earlier than you'd played it) or to the right (later than you'd played it) so it coincides with the nearest "perfectly timed" note position. You can turn quantization on or off, adjust the size (time-wise) of the quantization interval (quarter notes, eighth notes, 16th notes, 32nd notes, etc.), or keep quantization turned off but then apply it after the fact to a selected section of your recording. Some DAWs may even let you select a section of your recording and then perform the opposite of quantization, which I think is usually called "humanization" or something like that, meaning to randomly nudge the notes a little bit left or right so they aren't so perfectly timed, which helps them sound less robotic and more like they've been played by a human.

As you described usage of "quantization" it looks quite tempting. But I'm afraid it's too early for me. I don't want to be over-confident and over-prided-DAW-artist ;-) My first planned achievement is to start being novice / beginner user instead of "noob".
First answers brought for me even more questions.
I can give some real examples for my trials conducted yesterday:

1. When I was able finally to play and store what I played and listed in afterwards, I really felt like first step towards beginner has been made. However I wanted more and then... I failed. For example, I want to see what happened if I use accompaniment. I was surprised (using Cakewalk) accompaniment (set on keyboard) been mute. I realised it was probably one of my naive wishes to achieve something unachievable.

2. When I continued to experiment with chords / accompaniment, couple times I caused whole keyboard became mute. Whatever key I pressed, nothing happened. No matter if USB cable been plugged or disconnected, keyboard stayed mute until i switched it off and back on.

Those above examples clearly showing my noob level. I'm not ashamed and I can say: "I'm noob who wants to achieve beginner level."

Anyway, once you've learned how to record and play back MIDI tracks, which it seems you've done (unless they were audio tracks?), the next step is learning how to select where you want each track to be output to-- which in your case will (I assume) be to your keyboard)-- as well as which voice you want the keyboard to use for each track.

At this point I have to correct a bit what you wrote. I just learned how to play + record + play back MIDI single track. No more no less. Of course this track wasn't an audio track. I'm not trying to reach any level above MIDI track(s) as I can't comprehend most of basic functions yet.

I noticed something... I'm not sure if I used Cakewalk or maybe it was FL - just forgot. When I loaded MIDI file (created by someone else) to PC (Cakewalk or FL Studio) I noticed it played back (on keyboard) slight different comparing to load MIDI file directly into keyboard memory and play it back. I assume I'm doing something wrong.

Once I've uninstalled the old trial versions of Cakewalk from before BandLab bought it, and free up enough space to install BandLab's free version, I'll see if I can help you with those next steps.

If it will be not much effort for you, I will really appreciate anything you can help me with.

And finally, let's consider it as a part of my introduction, I would like to share what I've done in my past. It's not clearly connected to keyboard / DAW / MIDI, just presenting my artwork.
If for any reason it's against of the forum rules, I want to kindly ask moderator(s) just to remove following link, leaving anything else I wrote.

My artwork

I hope you'll enjoy watching.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

Regarding quantization, it's probably turned on by default-- at least, it often is on a lot of DAWs-- so if you don't want to use it then you might need to turn it off. If in fact it is already turned on by default, it is likely set to an interval of 32nd notes or something like that.

It turns out that I had already uninstalled the old trial versions of SONAR Cakewalk several months ago when I had to free up some space on my overly-bloated hard drive. That means I'm going to have to look for something else to get rid of to free up more space.

By the way, to anyone who uses Ableton Live-- when I was freeing up some of my hard drive space, most of the files and programs I was uninstalling or moving to an external drive were just little drops in the bucket, until I moved all of the free Live packs (expansion sound samples and so on) that I'd installed over the years. It turns out that those packs are pretty large and can take up a lot of space on your hard drive!

 

[Nasedo]

By the way, to anyone who uses Ableton Live-- when I was freeing up some of my hard drive space, most of the files and programs I was uninstalling or moving to an external drive were just little drops in the bucket, until I moved all of the free Live packs (expansion sound samples and so on) that I'd installed over the years. It turns out that those packs are pretty large and can take up a lot of space on your hard drive!

I hope you hadn't lost anything from your collection, as I fully understand how important could be collection carefully selected over the years. As I have a limited faith in computers, always trying to make at least one backup copy of something important and some of crucial data is backed up three times.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

No, all of the Ableton Live packs that I removed from my internal hard drive have been stored on an external hard drive for now. Not that I was using them, anyway! And if they get lost or deleted, I can always download them again from the Ableton website. My external hard drive is actually very small in terms of storage space, because it's an old drive that I'd bought over a decade ago for backup purposes but then didn't make much use of until I started running out of space on my internal drive and needed to move some things. Now I'm thinking of buying a new external drive that would have more than twice as much space as my internal drive, since they've gotten to be so inexpensive-- and my desktop computer is a few years old now, which is a century in computer years, so even though it was a good computer by yesteryear's standards, it's barely up to snuff by today's standards, and its internal drive is kind of puny compared to what's available these days.