Korg NAUTILUS

[happyrat1]

Each action has its place. I think virtually everyone--even Kurzweil--has always considered the TP40L (as on the Forte) to be the better action, but the Medelli has two big benefits: cheaper and lighter. A PC4 with a TP40L would weigh a lot more than its 28 lbs and cost a lot more than its $2k. It's good that they offer both, so players who must gig with something lighter or must have something more affordable can still get something as capable as a PC4.

Honestly who knows? Kaneda might even like the Medeli action so much he'll walk home with a PC4 instead of a K series

Gary

 

[Kaneda]

Honestly who knows? Kaneda might even like the Medeli action so much he'll walk home with a PC4 instead of a K series

Gary

I've never played a Medeli action but I guess you could put it in the same basket as Korg's NH and Yamaha's GHS. Not bad actions, but not on the level of Korg's RH3 (or the Fatar TP40L for that matter).
I've owned a Korg Kross 2 88 and that had the NH action. I liked it but it certainly is not suitable to expressively play the piano on. But like I said, I have my Kawai for classical piano, and I am looking for a board to have fun with.

The trouble is, I'll have to find a store that has one of those board on display in order to try them out. Or I could do what I'm good at, order a board and if I don't like it, send it back

As for that PC4, looks like a cool board, but again, does it have the sounds I want factory installed (and this goes for that K2700 as well). The PC4 is a lot cheaper than the Kronos and I guess the K2700 will cost around the same as the Kronos.
For example : the Kronos has sounds used in popular songs, pianos used by the Beatles, Elton John, etc. It also has arpeggios from for example Queen (Radio Ga Ga), Mr. Mister (Kyrie), etcetera.
Those are the kind of sounds and programs I'm looking for and I'm not interested in creating them myself. So they have to be in there by default, ready for me to use, or available for download (preferablly for free but I'm willing to pay a small fee for them IF they are exactly like the original, like in the Kronos)...

 

[happyrat1]

Full specs as well as the manuals for the PC4 are available for download on Kurzweil's website.

PC4 - KURZWEIL It's the Sound®

kurzweil.com

It should have all the bread and butter sounds and arps you could possibly ask for built in.

As for downloading additional sounds? There are two websites devoted to Kurzweils, both of which have extensive downloads (one for $6 AUD per year).

Ksetlist – A community of users of Kurzweil keyboards

ksetlist.com

Log in

Log in

forums.godlike.com.au

Registration is free on both of these but if you need download privileges on the second site, it's $6 AUD per year and they have literally thousands of patches available as well as expert help and general info.

Visit Ksetlist and take a look at their download section first.

They do occasionally take requests as well.

Gary

 

[Kaneda]

On second thought...
Going out on a limb here, but maybe the Nautilus 'could be' more suitable for me ? Wouldn't the Nautilus be easier to use than the Kronos for me specificalliy, being a synth and workstation noob ?
Is the software identical to the Kronos ? The absence of sliders (to use with organ for example) is certainly not a deal breaker for me, for instance.
It's true that the price difference between the Kronos 88 and the Nautilus 88 is minimal but as @anotherscott said, the Nautilus might be more future proof than the Kronos... I mean, if it has more or less the same capabilities as the Kronos AND is easier to use, then I'm all for that...
What would I be missing out on when going for the Nautilus in comparison with the Kronos ?

In any case, I'm keeping those Kurzweils in mind as well...

 

[happyrat1]

What scared me away from the korgs was the crappy 30 year old resistive touchscreen design.

Modern tablets use capacitive touchscreens.

Resistive touchscreens are strictly used these days in applications to save money on production costs, but they don't age well and can be problematic when it comes to using them as time goes on.

Gary

 

[Kaneda]

Yes, well, I'm not really a fan of touchscreens, either, except for my iPad and iPhone.
I must admit that just looking at the PC4 and K2700, all those buttons and controls seem very good quality and very 'tactile'. I like that.
The PC4's specs seem impressive and if it offers me all the stuff I'm looking for, then it would be unwise to spend 1000 euro more on a Kronos or even a K2700 (I believe it will be priced like the Kronos 88).

The only problem is trying one out (and @Biggles may be right about Kurzweils being hard to find) : I can buy one online from Thomann, but I'd have to find a brick and mortar store that stocks Kurzweil in order to try one out. There's aren't many of those stores about over here, so I might have to play the buy&return game again...
I must admit I am curious about that Medeli action, though.

 

[happyrat1]

The voice list for the PC4 starts on page 334, Appendix C of the musician's guide.

https://kurzweil.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/PC4-Musicians-Guide-Rev-F.pdf

As for arps? I think my PC3K has somewhere between 50 and 100 different patterns.

It shouldn't be all that different for the PC4.

Also, I believe you can establish up to 32 control zones, each running different arps and setups concurrently.

When it comes to MIDI controllers, Kurzweil takes a back seat to nobody.

Gary

 

[Biggles]

Korg PA series use capacitive LCD's.

The Kronos was sort of refreshed a couple of years ago but the text in the websites is vague as is the manuals regarding the screen type.

 

[happyrat1]

Korg PA series use capacitive LCD's.

The Kronos was sort of refreshed a couple of years ago but the text in the websites is vague as is the manuals regarding the screen type.

Check the thread I linked to from Korg Forums a few messages back.

Korg doesn't really advertise the fact but they definitely use resistive touchscreens on the Nautilus and Kronos 2 models.

Gary

 

[Kaneda]

Apparently, there are no official Kurzweil dealers in Belgium. Distributor for Belgium is located in Germany...

 

[happyrat1]

Well once the pandemic is over, perhaps you take off a weekend in Germany

Gary

 

[Kaneda]

Well once the pandemic is over, perhaps you take off a weekend in Germany

Gary

Lol...
Still, it's odd that Kurzweil keyboards are not widely available like those from the 'better known' brands like Yamaha, Roland, Korg, etc.

 

[happyrat1]

Kurzweil's sales are small, but their fans are fanatics.

They pretty much only sell pro gear.

They leave the consumer junk to the big 4.

Gary

 

[Kaneda]

Been watching some reviews on the PC4 and that Medeli action doesn't really seem to be all that good.
I like MexKeys' channel : our Italian friend obviously has a lot of experience with different boards. Anyway, he didn't speak highly at all of the 'Made in China' Medeli K6 keybed in the PC4 and the SP6.
It' not complete rubbish, so he says, but one definitely needs to try it before buying.

The K2700 will likely have a much better keybed but in my experience, I'm not a fan of Fatar actions (didn't like the one in the Nord Piano 4 one bit).
But I will try one out, just to be sure. Nevertheless, I'm more and more considering a Nautilus 8. I know I'm going to love the action and it actually seems that it will be simpler to operate than a Kronos, but still giving me everything I want.

 

[Kaneda]

What strikes me is that a manufacturer like Kurzweil is not able to implement a decent action into something like the PC4, which is by no means an entry level workstation. I mean, you can buy a Korg D1 for 550 euro, and that has Korg's best action in it. Granted, the D1 hasn't got any features to speak of, but it has a pro level keybed, which is in my opinion better than Fatar's best (only Kawai's wooden actions trump Korg's RH3), and all that for a bargain price.
I therefore wonder why a quality brand like Kurzweil would prefer to put a Chinese made entry level keybed into a quality workstation like the PC4...

Anyway, been looking at that D1, it's a DP I've found very cool from the minute I layed eyes on it, and maybe, just maybe, instead of buying a Nautilus/Kronos 88, I'd be better off getting a D1 and getting something like a Nautlius 61, or even Krome EX61, or even a Kross 2 61 to complement it (been looking at some videos of the Kross 2 I hadn't seen before, seems to have more capabilities than I thought).
To be honest, I've owned a Kross 2 88 AND a Krome EX88 but haven't even begun to touch the capabilities of either of them. And actually, I'm a beginner when it comes to workstations.
Also, not quite sure yet what I'm going to sell, my CA58, or my MP11SE. The CA58 blends in quite nicely with the furniture, that's for sure, but is that a reason to prefer it over the MP11SE, which is equally as good, if not more so ?

In any case, I'm keeping either the CA58 or the MP11SE, because I really need a solid keybed for classical playing ; as for the 'fun' setup, I might consider other options, and maybe combine a D1 with a Kross 2 or a Krome EX, or why not, a Nautilus 61 (the least complicated as possible...).

 

[anotherscott]

The K2700 will likely have a much better keybed but in my experience, I'm not a fan of Fatar actions (didn't like the one in the Nord Piano 4 one bit).

K2700 (and Forte and Forte 7) uses a lighter version of the TP40 action that is in the Nord Piano 4, and is especially good for a piano action that you'd also need to play organ from. So if you disliked the action in the NP because you thought it felt heavy/slow, you might like that Kurz action; if you disliked that Nord action for other reasons, you probably won't like the one in the K2700 either.

What strikes me is that a manufacturer like Kurzweil is not able to implement a decent action into something like the PC4, which is by no means an entry level workstation. I mean, you can buy a Korg D1 for 550 euro...I therefore wonder why a quality brand like Kurzweil would prefer to put a Chinese made entry level keybed into a quality workstation like the PC4...

Kurzweil, being a relatively small company, does not make their own actions, so they are limited to what is available from others. Nord and Dexibell, among others, are in the same boat. It would not be surprising that keyboard manufacturers who have their own designs are unlikely to make those actions available to their competitors. A rare exception is that Nord uses a modified Kawai action in the Nord Grand. But that still would have depended on Kawai's willingness to sell their actions to Nord. It was probably feasible because, Nord being Nord, it was being marketed at a sufficiently high price that (a) they had the budget to pay well for the use of that action, and (b) the final product was being marketed with a design+price combination that did not directly compete with any model that Kawai themselves sell. I have had the thought that it aould be interesting for a brand like Kurzweil to get an action From Casio, since similarly, the two don't have products that directly compete, and Casio is known for cost-effective production so it could be financially feasible... but that still would depend on Casio being willing to sell their actions to (broadly speaking) a competitor. There are also service issues to consider, as such an arrangement would also have to come with an agreement to continue to make parts available for some number of years.

So anyway, that means Kurzweil's options were basically to use Fatar or something from China. If Kurzweil's goal with the PC4 was, in part, to have a full function board that weighed no more than about 30 lbs (i.e. to compete with MODX8, Krome EX), their only options were probably Fatar TP100 and the Medelli, and the Medelli is probably the better of the two. And in fact, I'd say that the Medelli is perfectly competitive with the actions used in the MODX8, Krome EX, Roland FA-08.

And yes, the PC4 is an entry level workstation, by Kurzweil standards. It is the least expensive workstation they have ever made, and is far less expensive than the Forte and will be less than the forthcoming K2700. It is also priced closer to MODX8, Krome EX, Roland FA-08 than to Montage, Nautilus, Kronos, or Fantom.

I mean, you can buy a Korg D1 for 550 euro, and that has Korg's best action in it. Granted, the D1 hasn't got any features to speak of, but it has a pro level keybed...I've owned a Kross 2 88 AND a Krome EX88

...and note that Korg didn't use the D1 action in either of those boards, either. Travel weight can be a factor, but also, at a given price point, there are always trade-offs. There's nothing magical about "at this price, it should have that," because having "that" always also means not having something else. So you may think, "the PC4 is $2k, it should have a better keyboard," but even if a better keyboard that met their other needs was available, it would probably cost more. So then you have to calculate, what features should they take out of the PC4 in order to finance the better keyboard? Or how much more should they charge for the PC4 to put that better keyboard in?

For the customer who wants it, they are coming out with the K2700, which is basically a PC4 with a better action and a metal chassis (possibly also needed to support the weight of the better action), an internal power supply, more memory, audio over USB, trigger pads, and the ribbon built in instead of available as an option.

 

[ChrisNabil]

Kaneda - it seems that you and I are in a similar situation. I have a Kawai MP11se and I love it very much. Until very recently I was adamant that I was going to keep it but then I started thinking... ​

I want a Korg Nautilus and also an arranger like the Korg Pa4x but I realized if I was to do that I would have to have three keyboards in my rig and that just makes things complicated. The Nautilus has great piano sounds so why would I keep the MP11se too? I really love the action of the Kawai and I remember from trying the Kronos that the action was very good too but not like the MP11se.

I really like the streamlined stripped-back look of the Nautilus and I feel I would be able to get to grips with it unlike the Kronos although does it make sense when I could buy a Kronos for a little more...

First-world problems hey!

Chris

 

[Kaneda]

@ChrisNabil
Well, it's true that the price difference between the Kronos and the Nautlius is negligible at this time. For me, though, I'm wondering if I will be able to 'handle' the Kronos because I'm a pianist at heart and I'm a real novice when it comes to sequencers, creating arpeggiators, sounds, etc.

I just need something easy to use that will give me the sounds and arms I need. The Nautilus seems user friendly enough, but I've also been exploring other options.
Not really keen anymore on Kurzweil, they seem like good boards but as @Biggles pointed out, it's very hard to find a store that has them in stock to try out, plus if there is no official support in your country, then that could prove to be a problem, too.
So, I'll be sticking to the better known brands.

As for my Kawais, I love my CA58 and. MP11SE just as much. My CA58 blends in nicely with my furniture but that's not a must, really. So still on the fence about which one I will keep.
Also been thinking about buying another board to complement my MP11SE (perhaps a Nautilus 61 might be an option), but then I started looking at the competition, equally priced but also cheaper options. It's a case of one devil and one angel on each of my shoulders. the devil saying to go for the best, the angel saying not to spend too much money and do I really need it, etc. etc.

Anyway, been looking at different options from Roland, Yamaha and Korg, from the most expensive (Fantom, Montage, Kronos and yes Nautilus as well), to the mid-range (FA, MODX, Krome EX), to the entry-level boards (Juno DS, MX, Kross 2).
Been watching loads of Youtube footage and it's really difficult to decide.
For the moment, though, the Nautilus still seems to be the best choice, but the Montage/MODX is starting to win me over (I'm mentioning the Montage because even though it's double the price of the MODX and you're not really getting that many more features, I could be persuaded to pay extra for the build quality and the keybed - playing the MP11SE makes one become quite spoiled...)

So, it's either keeping the CA58 and selling the MP11SE, and getting a new 88 key board to replace it, or selling the CA58 and getting a 61 or 73/76 key board to complement the MP11SE, basically 'spicing up' the latter.
Or still, when keeping the CA, I was thinking of getting one of those keyboard desks, but a really nice one, where I could integrate my iMac and Macbook, in order to have an all-in-one desk for work and music (production, ahem...). Just thinking out loud, options are open.

 

[anotherscott]

I'm a real novice when it comes to sequencers

The boards vary enormously in their sequencer functions. "Sequencer" is not something you should consider to be a simple "yes" or "no" on a checklist of features, since their capabilities and methods of operation can vary so much. Check youtube video tutorials on the sequencers on the various boards to get a feel for how the different models work. I am not an expert here so will quickly defer to others for details/corrections, but just to get started with some big picture differetiators, I think that of the boards you mentioned, Kronos, Nautilus, Krome, Kross, and FA are geared toward linear sequencing (with Krome probably being the easiest to use, and Kronos/Nautilus being the only ones that allow you to include audio tracks in your sequences), while Fantom, Montage, and MODX are geared for building your sequences out of looped segments/patterns.

I love my CA58 and. MP11SE ...on the fence about which one I will keep...it's either keeping the CA58 and selling the MP11SE, and getting a new 88 key board to replace it, or selling the CA58 and getting a 61 or 73/76 key board to complement the MP11SE

If that's the choice, and you're looking for a tie-breaker, I'd go the second way. Because one way you end up with two hammer action 88s (unless maybe you choose the Kronos LS), while the other way you can end up with a hammer action and also an alternate non-hammer action to use for when it is better for the task at hand (e.g. organ). You can still use your 88 to trigger sounds in you 61/73/76 for times you may prefer to play your new board's sounds from a hammer action. Aside: Montage/MODX are somewhat less flexible in their ability to have their sounds triggered from an external board than the other boards you mentioned are. From this perspective, I'd probably lean toward Fantom (6 or 7) or Kronos (61) for having both MIDI flexibility and high quality actions with aftertouch. If you don't care about aftertouch, then also Nautilus (61, 73), or Kronos LS.

Or still, when keeping the CA, I was thinking of getting one of those keyboard desks, but a really nice one, where I could integrate my iMac and Macbook, in order to have an all-in-one desk for work and music (production, ahem...). Just thinking out loud, options are open.

If integrating with a computer is an option, I'd lean toward Fantom. The differences among all the boards you mentioned basically fall into four categories: actions, sounds, operational interface/ergonomics, and other features (like sequencing and sampling). Actions are always somewhat subjective, but I'll assume that all the brands you listed have models with acceptable actions. Sounds and other features can be important differentiators when you're using a board by itself, but in the context of integrating a computer, almost any shortcoming within a particular board in one of these areas can be addressed via something you can find via software (especially if it's something you only need now and then rather than rely on all the time... in that latter case, you may prefer the convenience of having it in the board). So when looking for a keyboard to integrate with a computer, I see interface/ergonomics as probably the biggest factor, that's the part you can't really change/fix externally, and that's where I think Fantom has an advantage. (Caveat: I haven't actually been able to try a Fantom yet myself, so this is just based on what I know about it, rather than personal experience.) ETA: Also, Fantom has features specifically designed for Mac Logic/Mainstage integration.

Unlikely but not inconceivable variation that throws a kink into all of that: It's not impossible that you could prefer the Fantom 8 and its V-Piano over your Kawais. If that happens, then you might end up preferring to sell both Kawais and use a Fantom 8 (with or without some other second board with a non-hammer action).

Whole new topic: You mentioned considering Korg Kross/Krome/Nautilus/Kronos, Roland DS/FA/Fantom, Yamaha MX/MODX/Montage; and you said you "just need something easy to use that will give me the sounds and arms I need." The more you want a board to do, the less easy it gets, but focussing especially on the arms you need, have you considered an arranger? For backing tracks, that's easier than using a sequencer, and some arrangers still do have sequencers for the times you prefer to take that approach. In that latter category, you could look at Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa4X/PA1000/PA700 (those Korgs listed in order of descending quality of action, as well as other features).

 

[Biggles]

Ease of use and Workstation do not exactly go together.

As has been very well described the features if each make vary considerably and even in lower end Workstations like the Juno and FA the operation on the sequencer varies quite a lot.

You may have found that on the Yamaha website there are dozens of videos related to the operation of the Montage

MONTAGE - Audio & Video - Yamaha - UK and Ireland

Welcome to the new era from the company that brought you the DX and the Motif.Montage sets the next milestone with sophisticated dynamic control, massive sound creation and streamlined workflow.

uk.yamaha.com

Roland have their own Youtube Channel and Ed Diaz is an excellent presenter

To complete the big three’s offerings here is Steve McNally on the Kronos

It will be a steep learning curve whatever you decide