Kurzweil PC4. Expression pedal issues

[williamwill]

Hi
I tried it on program 142 and it worked so now I have swell activated. I will assume will be the case on the remaining programs I mentioned from the earlier string.
Since that original post I have come to the understanding that these are programs that were set by technicians / engineers to behave that way.

Should the expression parameter be set to CC pedal 1 too?

 

[Jonsmanoj]

It seems in the programs with this issue, the Expression parameter which is mapped to MIDI CC#11 is not modulating anything (it's supposed to modulate the level). You can leave it unchanged.

 

[williamwill]

That's where my confusion lies between expression and swell.

 

[Jonsmanoj]

If you hit EDIT after selecting the Parameter Swell or Expression, you can see that the destination is MIDI CC# is 4 and 11 respectively. On the Param page, when you assign CC Pedal 1 to Swell, CC Pedal 1 values (0 - 127) are sent via MIDI CC#4 message to the synth. If the synth is set to act on it by way of modulation of volume, we will get the volume controlled by the Pedal - which is happening in the case of KB3 programs.

But in programs with the issue, CC Pedal sending to MIDI CC#11 (Parameter named Expression) is not resulting in the level change - which means the modulation configuration is broken inside. In these programs, you can leave Expression mapping untouched or even you can delete it. (EDIT -> Delete)

Also instead of MIDI CC#4 for controlling level, CC#91 is also working on KB3 programs. If you want to try it on a program with the issue, add a "new param" (using the softkey in one of the pages you get while doing MORE>) and set the Destination to 91. Come back to the PARAM page and assign CC Pedal 1 to the new parameter created (with the name Info 91, if you have not edited it)

 

[williamwill]

Hi
Will this broken modulation configuration be repaired on the next OS update?

I'm still unclear as to the Swell parameter and its usage. Is Swell used for synths only?

 

[Jonsmanoj]

In the Alpha OS I'm using I see this issue with 2 programs only, so I assume this will be fixed in the next release.

'Swell' or 'Expression' is a meaning full naming given to the parameter. Of course, Swell means volume variation from the Pipe Organ world - opening and closing of louvers. Swell pedal means Expression pedal in many language contexts also.

In the case of PC4, it's about the mapping under Parameter Page (Mapping a Physical Controller to a MIDI CC, hit EDIT to see it) and how the synth (sound generator, KB3 in this context) acts when it gets the MIDI CC. By default, "Expression" is seen in every program and is internally wired to vary the level in VAST programs and uses MIDI CC#11.

You can change the name of the parameter Swell to something else like "Volume Pedal". What matters is the physical control ("CC Pedal 1") and the destination ("4")

Hope I'm not confusing you!

 

[williamwill]

No.
It's a lot to digest. I will look further into all you provided. You've been most helpful and I thank you. I too know Swell in context with the Hammond organ.

I just didn't understand the purpose of having two parameters, (Expression and Swell) with different names that perform the same function, basically volume.

Are you aware of the same in other keyboard Manufacturers?

 

[Jonsmanoj]

As per official MIDI specs, and if your instrument complies with it - there are three control numbers for controlling volume level:

#4: Foor Controller
#7: Channel Volume
#11: Expression (% of Channel Volume)

It's up to the manufacturer (and in the case of VAST, the sound programmer) to decide on the exact behavior and since MIDI is also about inter-op, every manufacturer will comply with the specification. Manufactures can support both #4 and #11 for compatibility.

I think Kurzweil started using #4 for KB3 Swell to emulate Swell functionality which is different from Expression functionality. From PC4 manual: "For KB3 Organ Programs, the CC1 (VOLUME) pedal controls organ swell. Organ swell is similar to Program volume, except volume can not be turned all the way down to silence."

I can see PC4 KB3 programs which have got #11 mapped to CC Pedal 1, which doesn't have a mapping for #11, which had #4 mapped to CC Pedal 1, both #4 and #11 mapped - the probable reason is that the sources of these programs range from K Series, PC3, Forte and new ones made for PC4.

Kurzweil VAST is an extremely 'configurable and programmable' synth with cross-compatibility of programs (PC4 can load sound from K2, PC3, Forte, etc) so these bugs can be expected. That also the reason why we were able to fix the program.

I did a quick check around popular models and I didn't see anyone else other than Nord using CC#4 for Swell Pedal.

 

[williamwill]

I have a pretty good understanding now of what's going on in the KB3 program parameters concerning expression and swell.
Program number (123 Ole Time Gospel) parameters are showing this:

Parameter. Control. Value.
Swell. CC Pedal 2 None
Expression. CC Pedal 1. None

As I scroll further down this appears:

Swell Ctl. CC Pedal 1. None

Changing the above Swell parameter control to CC pedal 1 works. But so does the Swell Ctw parameter control.

I have OS version 4.32.....
Will I soon see an updated system.