Roland, Yamaha, MIDI and the Tower of Babel

[crlMIDI]

This started out as a poor 82 year old (stress former) electronics whiz wanting to be able to send MIDI channel information from a Yamaha P-125 to a Roland VR-09. It has become a peeing contest over the plusses and minusses regarding the P-125. I don't see the purpose of discussing the features of the Yamaha that appeal to me. We can discuss that in another thread, right?

I have downloaded several of the manuals of the P-125 and note it has a lot of information on MIDI including how to send MIDI channel info (which is all I need) from the P-125's keyboard. That is half the battle. It WILL send the MIDI channel to the USB cable. Now all we need is the SOFTWARE to recognize the data coming from the Yamaha and convert it to a format that can then be sent to the Roland USB connection. It would certainly appear to me that it is quite possible. I simply wanted to know if anyone has taken the pains to write that software.

There is a P-125 less than three miles from me at a music shop just waiting for me to buy it and throw it gently into my Hyundai.

Now I suppose we'll start talking about why I bought a Hyundai.

Gerry

As I and others have posted, there are standard ways of connecting usb MIDI code to standard MIDI and vice-versa. The difficulty is in translating the MIDI-coded byte strings put out by one instrument into strings that can be interpreted by the other, even when the MIDI standard is respected by both instruments. From the very beginning, manufacturers have ensured that writing computer or microprocessor code to do the translation is a challenge, even when communicating between different current models from the same manufacturer. You might do it once for a particular pair of instruments but you'll find it impossible to make any of the code reusable for another pair, and likely come to the conclusion that it's all a waste of time and not worth the effort.

 

[gswetsky]

As I covered in the three posts I wrote in this thread on June 26 and July 3, you'll need to either connect the VR09 and P125 to a computer, or to an iOS device, or to one of the adapters I linked to. The adapters work by themselves. For the computer or iOS device there are a wide choice of software programs you can run that will let you channel MIDI data between the two attached keyboards. (On the Roland, you can use either its USB port or its 5-pin MIDI connection.) What other information do you need?

I connected the VR-09 to my computer and my (Windows) device manager showed a driver for the synth. I have no doubts a driver would be found for the P-125 as well. It seems an app should be available to connect the two if anyone would undertake the task of writing one.

As memory serves, the info you supplied did not address that issue. However, I will reread them in case I missed something.

Gerry

 

[anotherscott]

As I and others have posted, there are standard ways of connecting usb MIDI code to standard MIDI and vice-versa. The difficulty is in translating the MIDI-coded byte strings put out by one instrument into strings that can be interpreted by the other, even when the MIDI standard is respected by both instruments. From the very beginning, manufacturers have ensured that writing computer or microprocessor code to do the translation is a challenge, even when communicating between different current models from the same manufacturer. You might do it once for a particular pair of instruments but you'll find it impossible to make any of the code reusable for another pair, and likely come to the conclusion that it's all a waste of time and not worth the effort.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. There's almost no challenge at all.

Any two devices that use standard MIDI ports should be able to commnicate with each other without problems.

Any two devices that use standard USB ports should also be able to communicate with each other (or with a device that has a standard MIDI port) as long as there is a host in-between (i.e. a computer, iOS device, one of the standalone interfaces I listed), with very few exceptions.

The exceptions (or challenges) are (a) if a USB device is not class compliant and requires a custom driver (generally not an issue unless you're talking about stuff that's over 10 years old), or (b) some of the standalone interfaces have problems with some older Yamaha gear, or (c) as someone recently discovered here, possibly if the old device uses "active sensing" and the software you're trying to use it with gets confused by it. All of these exceptions are uncommon, at least with any recent gear.

There are also some keyboards that, themselves, can act as USB hosts, but those are still relatively rare.

Bottom line: As long as all the gear and software follows the rules--and the vast majority of it does--you can connect any of these things together without difficulty. Directly, if they are both 5-pin devices, or with a host if there is a USB device involved.

 

[anotherscott]

I connected the VR-09 to my computer and my (Windows) device manager showed a driver for the synth. I have no doubts a driver would be found for the P-125 as well. It seems an app should be available to connect the two if anyone would undertake the task of writing one.

As memory serves, the info you supplied did not address that issue. However, I will reread them in case I missed something.

I think you don't realize how how close you are. Now that you've explained you're using a Windows computer (which I don't think you'd mentioned earlier), that means you've got your host, and yes, it will see your Roland and your Yamaha. The only question left is what software to use. That's up to you. There's lots to choose from. Do you have any DAW software whatsoever on your PC? If so, you should be able use that. If you don't have anything, I think the free version of Camelot Pro should do it. Basically, any MIDI software on your PC that lets you route MIDI from one place to another will do what you want. There's nothing special you need for one brand/model of keyboard versus another. If Windows sees it, you're set... because indeed, MIDI is standardized.


ETA: p.s. -- I'm not a Windows guy, but there may be additional complications that have nothing to do with MIDI, but result just from the complications of doing this kind of stuff in WIndows. You may experience latency (a delay between when you press the key on one keyboard and have it sounded by the other)... if you've ever used your PC for any audio/MIDI work, you've probably already addressed these kinds of issues and you should be good to go. But if you've never used a DAW or done any other similar music work on your PC, you may have a bit of a learning curve ahead of you, in terms of just how to optimize your PC for these applications.

And I know you don't really want to discuss the pros and cons of the P125, but since you haven't bought it yet, I still think it's worth keeping in mind that you can avoid all WIndows complications if you were to choose a piano that had a MIDI jack on it (like the two I mentioned), instead of needing to route everything through Windows to do what you need. Unless you have already got your PC all setup for doing music stuff anyway, in which case adding this function should be trivial.

 

[gswetsky]

There is NO STANDARD between keyboard manufacturers as to how to wire USB ports or receive / send MIDI information! Yamaha might use one method and Roland another! If you know of a software package which is familiar with MIDI USB configuration as used by Roland and Yamaha, give me its name and I'll investigate it. Also adding a $70 piece of hardware that may or may not understand Yamaha USB ports is a waste of money!

Gerry

 

[anotherscott]

There is NO STANDARD between keyboard manufacturers as to how to wire USB ports or receive / send MIDI information! Yamaha might use one method and Roland another! If you know of a software package which is familiar with MIDI USB configuration as used by Roland and Yamaha, give me its name and I'll investigate it. Also adding a $70 piece of hardware that may or may not understand Yamaha USB ports is a waste of money!

Yamaha and Roland and everyone else wire their USB ports the same way.

Yamaha and Roland and everyone else also receive/send MIDI data the same way (including over USB as long as you are talking about anything at all reasonably current).

Yamaha and Roland keyboards can talk to each other directly if they have MIDI ports.

Except for just a handful of exceptions, keyboards cannot communicate DIRECTLY with any other keyboards over their USB ports. That's not a limitation of MIDI, that's a limitation of USB. MIDI is a peer-to-peer syem, USB is a host/slave system. But as long as you have a host in your system (Mac, Windows PC, iPad, etc.), you can get these keyboards to communicate with each other via USB as well.

There is no such thing as a software package specifically to make Yamaha and Roland MIDI compatible because they are already MIDI compatible. Any MIDI software that allows you to send MIDI from one keyboard to another will ALREADY work with any current model from Roland or Yamaha (or Korg or Casio or Nord or Kurzweil or Moog or Kawai or anyone else).

As for the $70 box having a problem with Yamaha USB, you should not run into that, because you're talking about a current Yamaha, not an old one. But I did suggest that you buy the one I linked to from Amazon, because it's so easy to return it to them if it doesn't work out for you, for whatever reason. So you don't have to worry about it being a waste of money.

 

[anotherscott]

Something else that may help you deal with this conceptually is that you cannot plug one Roland VR09 into another Roland VR09 via USB (nor one P125 into another P125). It has nothing to do with the brand or model compatibility. Similarly, you can't use USB to connect one computer to another computer (even if identical make and model), as you can with some other methods of data communication (like ethernet). It has nothing to do with software programming, and it has nothing to do with MIDI, it's just a function of the way USB works. You can't connect slaves to slaves, or hosts to hosts.

Also, looking at the history might help. 5-pin MIDI was invented to allow MIDI devices to talk to directly to each other. Many years later, when USB was invented, they came out with adapters to let MIDI devices connect to computers via USB, but that doesn't change the fact that USB requires separate hosts and slaves (the computer is the host). Later, keyboard companies started putting USB on their keyboards so you could connect them to computers (as slaves) without using those adapters. Today, most keyboards have both MIDI and USB connections, but budget keyboards are likely to have just one or the other, presumably as a cost saving measure. Those budget keyboards that only have one are more likely to have USB, I'm guessing because they probably figure that most purchasers of budget keyboards own computers, while probably a smaller percentage of them own other keyboards.

So when Yamaha made the P125, yes, they omitted the 5-pin MIDI connection, i.e. they left off the feature that lets you connect it directly to another keyboard (which is basically what they told you). The MIDI is still compatible between the Yamaha and the Roland, but they chose to include the connection and communication protocol designed for direct connection to a computer (or other host) rather than the connection and communication protocol designed to communicate directly with another keyboard (whether a Roland, or another Yamaha digital piano, whatever).

So your choices in adding a hammer action board to your setup are:

* accept the fact that Yamaha chose not to include in the P125 the ability to communicate directly with other MIDI devices, and use a USB host of some sort (Mac, PC, iOS device, standalone box) to adapt it to be able to do something that the designers did not specifically design it to do, i.e. send MIDI to another keyboard. It may be a nuisance, but it works.

or

* buy a keyboard actually designed to directly connect to another keyboard (that is, something with 5-pin MIDI jacks, like the aforementioned Kawai ES110 or Kurzweil SP1, or pretty much any keyboard from $1000 up). You could also look at used keyboards here... older budget Yamahas for example did have standard MIDI connections rather than USB, so you could look for, say, a P35 or P95, and they should work fine connecting directly to your Roland as well.

 

[gswetsky]

Scott, I was aware of most of what you explained to me and knew the shortfall of both the 5 pin DIN connection as well as the USB connection. The most help you provided me was when you actually gave me the name of a software program that will probably solve my problem. I downloaded Camelot Pro today and according to their claims, it is just what I'm looking for. Unfortunately, it has no manual but plenty of instructional videos.

Now to learn how to use the bloody program!

 

[anotherscott]

Scott, I was aware of most of what you explained to me and knew the shortfall of both the 5 pin DIN connection as well as the USB connection. The most help you provided me was when you actually gave me the name of a software program that will probably solve my problem.

All you had to do to get that suggestion was to say that you were using Windows. ;-)

But hopefully you also see now that there is no babel, there is no different MIDI data or different USB wiring between the boards you want to connect. What you perceived as incompatibility was only a matter of USB inherently needing a host. With Windows now part of the equation, you have your host, and any software that routes MIDI from one place to another will work, there's nothing special needed for your particular gear. Because USB and MIDI do indeed follow standards. This is what I was trying to get across in post #24, but your post #25 seemed to indicate that a more thorough explanation was still needed. But maybe you hadn't seen my post #24 when you wrote your post #25.