The Kawai is missing pitch and mod controls and is way over weight for me sadly, but if I were recording at home and needed a piano controller...yes please! FP60X seems limited in too many ways for my usage but it's a nice instrument.
M-Audio Hammer 88 Pro
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Being a nice weekend with free time, I spent the last few hours assembling a list of possible configurations that would do what I want, action preferences aside. Turns out one needs about $768 in external equipment
to do the job with most boards, so that has to be taken into account and added to the cost of the base keyboard. I sure found some good tools in the process though! And it IS doable.
Possible Configurations in order of ascending cost:
1. Viscount K4/K4EX. 'Nuff said. $1490 + shipping + unknown US customs amount. Fatar TP40L.
2. SL88 Grand + SL Mixface - gives four zones for $1199.90. If 8 zones are needed, add a Sipario for $330, bringing that to $1529.90. Fatar TP40/Wood.
3. Kurzweil PC4. 4000+ user Multis, which can have 16 zones and program changes per zone. Kurzweil RPHA/Medeli K6. $1999.
4. Roland RD-88 + Sipario + Mixface or Panorama P1 + Kenton USB Midi Host - $2067. Roland PHA-4.
5. Kawai MP7SE + Sipario + SL Mixface + Kenton USB Midi Host - $2467 - Kawai has 256 user setups that can transmit 4 program changes on independent midi channels/zones, 4 zone controller. Adding the Mixface gives 99 Mixface programs for 4-zone/midi channel controller setups, needs the Kenton box to connect to hardware. Add the Sipario to expand to 8 zones with 8 program changes, cc filtering, all sorts of good stuff, with 30 Performances per Scene x 40 Scenes. Kawai RHIII.
6. Kawai MP7SE + Sipario + Nektar Panorama P1 + Kenton USB Midi Host - gives 20 fully configurable P1 Presets with tons of controls, but on one zone. Figure it could go through the USB Host box to the Sipario's second MIDI In, and be assigned to different zones from there. Price $2567.99. Kawai RHIII.
I wasn't really aware of the Panorama P1 before this search, but that seems like a nice bit of kit to have, if a little expensive. Looks like it's pretty flexible. I also hadn't really paid much attention to the Sipario, but that looks like between that and a fader controller + USB MIDI host one could really hugely expand almost any board out there. But that comes to $768 or so.
Seeing as I'm very uncertain about the SL88 Grand's action being too heavy/stiff and also not fond of the fact that the mixface can only control one zone per bank, meaning that you can't adjust the volume of multiple zones without switching between each bank on the controller, that's out. I'm also concerned about customs with the Viscount K4EX. I've ordered multiple times from Germany, but never for anything exceeding $800, which is where US customs duty starts being assessed. Thomann has an excellent global 3-year warranty, but I would need to ship the unit back to Germany and I'm concerned that customs on either end could create a mess, plus I have no idea how much that would cost me (Thomann WILL actually cover shipping if something is defective or it's a warranty claim!!). Depending on what US customs would assess me when importing it, it could go from being the least expensive option to significantly more expensive, and I'm concerned that would be a mess. I'd for sure be paying $81 minimum in customs but it could be a ton more which would defeat the purpose.
So...I plan on ordering a Kurzweil PC4 to fix this situation. It doesn't make much sense to me to pay more for an RD-88 with the needed accessories, and the MP7SE plus accessories gets way out of line.
Possible Configurations in order of ascending cost:
1. Viscount K4/K4EX. 'Nuff said. $1490 + shipping + unknown US customs amount. Fatar TP40L.
2. SL88 Grand + SL Mixface - gives four zones for $1199.90. If 8 zones are needed, add a Sipario for $330, bringing that to $1529.90. Fatar TP40/Wood.
3. Kurzweil PC4. 4000+ user Multis, which can have 16 zones and program changes per zone. Kurzweil RPHA/Medeli K6. $1999.
4. Roland RD-88 + Sipario + Mixface or Panorama P1 + Kenton USB Midi Host - $2067. Roland PHA-4.
5. Kawai MP7SE + Sipario + SL Mixface + Kenton USB Midi Host - $2467 - Kawai has 256 user setups that can transmit 4 program changes on independent midi channels/zones, 4 zone controller. Adding the Mixface gives 99 Mixface programs for 4-zone/midi channel controller setups, needs the Kenton box to connect to hardware. Add the Sipario to expand to 8 zones with 8 program changes, cc filtering, all sorts of good stuff, with 30 Performances per Scene x 40 Scenes. Kawai RHIII.
6. Kawai MP7SE + Sipario + Nektar Panorama P1 + Kenton USB Midi Host - gives 20 fully configurable P1 Presets with tons of controls, but on one zone. Figure it could go through the USB Host box to the Sipario's second MIDI In, and be assigned to different zones from there. Price $2567.99. Kawai RHIII.
I wasn't really aware of the Panorama P1 before this search, but that seems like a nice bit of kit to have, if a little expensive. Looks like it's pretty flexible. I also hadn't really paid much attention to the Sipario, but that looks like between that and a fader controller + USB MIDI host one could really hugely expand almost any board out there. But that comes to $768 or so.
Seeing as I'm very uncertain about the SL88 Grand's action being too heavy/stiff and also not fond of the fact that the mixface can only control one zone per bank, meaning that you can't adjust the volume of multiple zones without switching between each bank on the controller, that's out. I'm also concerned about customs with the Viscount K4EX. I've ordered multiple times from Germany, but never for anything exceeding $800, which is where US customs duty starts being assessed. Thomann has an excellent global 3-year warranty, but I would need to ship the unit back to Germany and I'm concerned that customs on either end could create a mess, plus I have no idea how much that would cost me (Thomann WILL actually cover shipping if something is defective or it's a warranty claim!!). Depending on what US customs would assess me when importing it, it could go from being the least expensive option to significantly more expensive, and I'm concerned that would be a mess. I'd for sure be paying $81 minimum in customs but it could be a ton more which would defeat the purpose.
So...I plan on ordering a Kurzweil PC4 to fix this situation. It doesn't make much sense to me to pay more for an RD-88 with the needed accessories, and the MP7SE plus accessories gets way out of line.
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1 out of 70 real issues. 1.5% defect rate. A little high but not abnormally high. I bought an M-Audio Code 61 a couple of months ago; from a controller perspective it is very tweakable. Unfortunately the 5 pin MIDI In only merges with the USB and not with the MIDI Out. That would have been a nice feature. Also, only 12 presets available. I wish it were 7x keys but as a controller it does a lot. Supports an expression pedal and sustain as well. I can't really complain for the price I paid for it. The Hammer 88 seems to have similar features.
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It's now for sure 2 out of 70, but after returning this one SW anticipates they will be hearing a lot more complaints as they've been selling a lot of them.
The Code 61 seems like a nice controller though - if I recall correctly, the HX3 people suggested it as a controller for their module. Still, I think I'm done with M-Audio.
Did I mention that they never responded to my support email?
Did I mention that they never responded to my support email?
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Talk about a controller! It has enough MIDI ports to keep even Gary happy! Is that the controller that can act as a USB host, such that you can connect it to a USB-MIDI keyboard using a simple USB cable and use it to control the USB-MIDI keyboard?
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Guido makes the D9U midi drawbar controller. If you purchase one of these then it opens up the door to a larger # of potential controllers that meet your other requirements. You're probably going to pay more for a controller with 9 sliders; might be better off investing in the midi drawbar unit, which is open source and programmable and if you want a different controller later on you'll always have the drawbar unit. I've been using my Voce midi drawbar unit with different keyboard configurations for years. I don't necessarily have to have 9 sliders on my controller unit because the Voce is always there to play the role.
My Oxygen Pro 61 did this couple of times but only when using Chrome app. Never in DAW.
Yes M-Audio controllers are not perfect but I learned pretty soon that in music everything is important. The power on sequence, who controls what, channels, the clock, the program, interface and setup, interface MIDI...all the way to the unit receiving MIDI and its part of controls. Its like you are about to launch a space missile into space. You forget one tinny detail in sequence and nothing works anymore.
Obviously you are advanced musician but it happens even to the best of the best. Who knows, you may have returned a perfectly working midi controller twice.
There is a reason why I rant about MIDI standards and its implementation by main manufacturers.
Thanks. Interesting to note something similar did happen with your Oxygen Pro, which of course is closely related to the Hammer 88 Pro, if only in one scenario.
I tried to isolate everything out before making the decision to give up on this model. I would really surprised if the following setup would do anything unusual:
M-Audio Hammer 88 Pro transmitting on Channel 1 only, Hammer 88 Pro Midi Out to Roland Fantom XR or Korg N1R or Korg X5D etc. Sustain and expression pedals connected to the Hammer 88 Pro. So no midi going back to the Hammer 88 Pro, no midi interface, no USB, no computer, no DAW or apps. Just a single channel from the Hammer 88 Pro to a single module, and it would hang. Reboots of modules made no difference; neither did disconnecting the pedals. I would be surprised if that would be something that would be something like you describe. I also checked it using a user preset that was blank, tried doing it with two zones on different channels connected to different modules, tried different factory presets, and tried without any pedals connected at all. No matter what it would intermittently hang notes.
I wouldn't write up a bunch nor make a video about an issue if I hadn't really narrowed it down. Plus when I talked with Sweetwater tech support prior to returning it they came to the same conclusion. If M-Audio actually responded to email support I could have gotten another confirmation I suspect.
Hi I’m looking also at getting the Hammer Pro. How did you find its integration with Cubase? Also have you considered using gig performer instead of main stage. It looks very good from reviews I’ve read also efficient on cpu.I can answer that right off the bat before the Hammer 88 Pro gets here.I'm going to be using it with Cubase (Elements 10.5 and Pro 10.5), as well as Mainstage (not a DAW, but similar enough to Logic). I also have the free version of Studio One, but I don't plan on doing anything with that. Otherwise I'll be using it with a physical rack of synth modules for gigs etc.
I'm liking the Hammer88 Pro minus a few things.
1. Had to replace the rotary encoders with ones that didn't slip between my fingers.
2. The OLED display is nice but the aftertouch doesn't display consistently.
3. The shift-piano key settings don't match the printed settings on the chassis (current firmware). All of the functions are shifted an octave and one key, to the left. Makes it difficult to use the shift-key functions.
Key action is great an is very expressive. Some pretty bad programming mistakes though, hope they figure that out.
1. Had to replace the rotary encoders with ones that didn't slip between my fingers.
2. The OLED display is nice but the aftertouch doesn't display consistently.
3. The shift-piano key settings don't match the printed settings on the chassis (current firmware). All of the functions are shifted an octave and one key, to the left. Makes it difficult to use the shift-key functions.
Key action is great an is very expressive. Some pretty bad programming mistakes though, hope they figure that out.
Here's a video of the shift function mislabeling. Sweetwater sent me a replacement and it performs the exact same as the first. The aftertouch on the first one is a bit more responsive.
Hammer 88 Pro | Shift key mislabeling
Hammer 88 Pro | Shift key mislabeling