Hey guys. Look I've looked into this before, but I really need to get it sorted now. Aging keys player actively gigging. I currently play through a Roland KC-400. Please don't judge me too harshly. But I'm pretty much too old to pick it up any more. Just too heavy. It's the only make of amp that's loud enough, and my main band is only a wedding band. I read constantly that you all play through powered speakers, which tend to be pretty easy to carry. But here's the thing. I've tried a few (even bought a QSC-10 a couple of years ago) and they're just not loud enough. Must be a weak output from my keys, of which I have three. So then I hear talk of preamps, or mixers, to boost the signal. What's the difference between these? Is one better than the other to boost the signal? Any recommendations? Please help if you can (in very simple words). I need to sort out my final keys setup on this earth. TIA.
Keys amplification
- Thread starter chrisfp99
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Some keyboards allow you to increase the gain on the output through a setting in Utility or System (or ??), have you tried that? Check the owner's manual for your boards? Other forums I frequent all agree with what you mentioned, that powered speakers are the lighter-weight way to go versus the KC option (I use Mackie Thump 12s in stereo). For all I've ever heard about QSC products, I'm surprised to hear they didn't blow you away...
I'd suggest you check into a gain boost on your boards first, as that might easily (and zero-cost) solve your problem.
Old No7
I'd suggest you check into a gain boost on your boards first, as that might easily (and zero-cost) solve your problem.
Old No7
I suggest that you look at a pair of of powered speakers, if you can find a pair which have either an inbuilt or a detachable mixer then all the better.
Look at Yamaha Stagepass 400 where a single speaker is 7.7kg so easily transported and moved. You can see the included mixer in the promo info
Look at Yamaha Stagepass 400 where a single speaker is 7.7kg so easily transported and moved. You can see the included mixer in the promo info
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I leave my KC-400 at home, always. Too heavy and it beats the hell out of my car when I load it. Instead, why not run your keys through the front of house system, and use the QSC-10 you've already invested in for your monitor, (unless you use IEM's, then leave the QSC at home as well.) If you're using multiple keyboards, invest in a Radial Key Largo 3 channel stereo mixer to send your keyboard mix to FOH. The DI's are already built into the Key Largo mixer. Save your back!
No, you don't use preamps or mixers to boost your signal.
What you need to do is set the volume on your keyboards to about 90%. Then feed them into your mixer. Now on your mixer each channel has a Gain trim. You'll need to set the gain trim high enough so that it blinks green when you play your keyboard. If you turn the gain all the way up and it's still not blinking, then take a look at your keyboard. Some keyboards have an output level switch: low, medium, high. Put it to medium or high and go back to the mixer.
If you're still not registering a signal, then go to your keyboard and plug your cable into the "headphones out" jack. This will give you a hotter signal. Some people incorrectly warn you against doing this. They are wrong. There is nothing wrong about plugging your headphones out into a mixer. Headphones out is still a line level signal, so it's fine.
In addition to the gain pot, each channel also has a fader. You wanna set that at 0db to start.
Now plug the "Mains out" of your mixer into your powered speakers - your PA speakers. My band uses Yamaha DZR12s for our PA, these are plenty loud (we are a rock band). Set the level on each PA speaker to 0 db.
Now go back to your mixer, and if your keyboards are too loud compared to the vocals, then lower the faders. (Don't touch the Gain).
The important point here is "gain staging". You want the output of your keyboards to be as high as they can go (almost) and you need to set the gain on the mixer so that it reads your keyboards without clipping. Clipping means your gain is flashing red, this is too high you need to back the gain off slightly.
What you need to do is set the volume on your keyboards to about 90%. Then feed them into your mixer. Now on your mixer each channel has a Gain trim. You'll need to set the gain trim high enough so that it blinks green when you play your keyboard. If you turn the gain all the way up and it's still not blinking, then take a look at your keyboard. Some keyboards have an output level switch: low, medium, high. Put it to medium or high and go back to the mixer.
If you're still not registering a signal, then go to your keyboard and plug your cable into the "headphones out" jack. This will give you a hotter signal. Some people incorrectly warn you against doing this. They are wrong. There is nothing wrong about plugging your headphones out into a mixer. Headphones out is still a line level signal, so it's fine.
In addition to the gain pot, each channel also has a fader. You wanna set that at 0db to start.
Now plug the "Mains out" of your mixer into your powered speakers - your PA speakers. My band uses Yamaha DZR12s for our PA, these are plenty loud (we are a rock band). Set the level on each PA speaker to 0 db.
Now go back to your mixer, and if your keyboards are too loud compared to the vocals, then lower the faders. (Don't touch the Gain).
The important point here is "gain staging". You want the output of your keyboards to be as high as they can go (almost) and you need to set the gain on the mixer so that it reads your keyboards without clipping. Clipping means your gain is flashing red, this is too high you need to back the gain off slightly.
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I am also super-commited to not lifting heavy stuff anymore. In fact one of the ways I miss my old pro career is just that! So my solution is a Roland SA-300 - it's a PA amp in 2 pieces, 150+150 watts, but very light, especially the bottom. The 3 band EQ is a help, though 5 band would be sweeter! You can just use the top - it's a strange design: the top has 2 6.5" coaxial speakers in it, and also the amplification for the bottom.
The other piece i use is a Studiologic Numa Compact 2x. only FIFTEEN pounds! includes speakers, aftertouch, Drawbars and good sounds. PS. a Novation ReMOTE SL61 lives in the car, along with the amp mentioned above, so if i'm really feeling old, I can just bring a Macbook Air (Mainstage 3.2) and a volume & sustain pedal, a USB cable and a 1/8" to stereo 1/4" cable. (and the flimsy keyboard X-stand that also lives in the car.)
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I have two boards - a Roland and a Kurzweil. The stereo outputs from each are fed into a Mackie VLZ4 12 channel mixer and the mixed and amplified balanced line signal feeds two QSC K10 powered cabinets.
If you're playing in a band with a decent PA, then output volume is obviously not a problem as it's most likely that you'll DI the keyboards. If you can use in-ear monitoring, then put a dedicated IEM amplifier between the mixer and your ear pieces, as this will have a signal limiter fitted, preventing you from blowing your ears to bits!
Personally, I would never use the headphone output of the keyboard as its headphone circuit will be designed for driving low impedance devices (as it implies, it's designed for headphones). The main balanced (or unbalanced if that's all that is available) line output from your keyboard should be more than capable enough to match the sensitivity of the mixer inputs.
As mentioned in other users answers, the internal settings within the keyboard itself so should also be set to a sufficiently acceptable level to ensure adequate drive level without introducing any signal distortion.
If you're playing in a band with a decent PA, then output volume is obviously not a problem as it's most likely that you'll DI the keyboards. If you can use in-ear monitoring, then put a dedicated IEM amplifier between the mixer and your ear pieces, as this will have a signal limiter fitted, preventing you from blowing your ears to bits!
Personally, I would never use the headphone output of the keyboard as its headphone circuit will be designed for driving low impedance devices (as it implies, it's designed for headphones). The main balanced (or unbalanced if that's all that is available) line output from your keyboard should be more than capable enough to match the sensitivity of the mixer inputs.
As mentioned in other users answers, the internal settings within the keyboard itself so should also be set to a sufficiently acceptable level to ensure adequate drive level without introducing any signal distortion.
That’s exactly what I do and I am 71 (lol).
This explains why it is ok to use headphone output:
I would do this as your rig - which is modeled after what I do now (this is exactly what I'd buy if starting from scratch):
- 3 Keyboards (yours)
- 1 Mackie ProFX12v3 mixer
- 2 QSC K8.2 speakers - on the ground, surrounding you on Left and Right
- Connect L/R of the 3 kybds. to the mixer
- Use Main Outs to send stereo signal your QSC K8.2's - with it's own volume/gain control
- Use Control Room L/R to send a stereo signal to your band's PA system (or just 1 Mono send if that's all it will take)
The beauty of this is you can also use one of the K8's as a stage (vocal) monitor, to hear your own vocals if you sing - and the rest of the band... if they can send you a feed.
As far as your QSC K10 being "not loud enough" - something is amiss... cuz those suckers CRANK! I have Q K10's and "not being loud enough" is never an issue.
What GigMan just said are good suggestions. My band uses a Mackie ProFX16v3, basically the same thing as the 12 with a few more channels.
For floor monitors we use Electro Voice PXM-12MP. These crank hard as well and be used in a floor wedge configuration or can be stuck on a pole like a PA. Can't go wrong with Electro Voice or the upper end Yamahas or the QSCs.
For floor monitors we use Electro Voice PXM-12MP. These crank hard as well and be used in a floor wedge configuration or can be stuck on a pole like a PA. Can't go wrong with Electro Voice or the upper end Yamahas or the QSCs.
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I only use my QSC K10's for rehearsals because when gigging, all the band members use IEM's.
When gigging, I send the band PA system a mixed keyboard feed from my mixer Aux Send outputs and I get back a complete band mono feed (minus my keyboards) from the desk - which feeds into one of the Stereo Returns on my mixer (unfortunately there aren’t enough channels spare on our 32 channel mixer for me to send it Stereo feeds from both keyboards).
This gives me :-
1. Stereo sound from both my keyboards in my ears.
2. A mixed keyboard signal level to the band PA that is completely separate from my own keyboard in-ears feed.
3. The ability to balance the signal level coming back from the main PA with my own dedicated Stereo keyboard sounds
This arrangement works well for me and gives full flexibility on all aspects.
When gigging, I send the band PA system a mixed keyboard feed from my mixer Aux Send outputs and I get back a complete band mono feed (minus my keyboards) from the desk - which feeds into one of the Stereo Returns on my mixer (unfortunately there aren’t enough channels spare on our 32 channel mixer for me to send it Stereo feeds from both keyboards).
This gives me :-
1. Stereo sound from both my keyboards in my ears.
2. A mixed keyboard signal level to the band PA that is completely separate from my own keyboard in-ears feed.
3. The ability to balance the signal level coming back from the main PA with my own dedicated Stereo keyboard sounds
This arrangement works well for me and gives full flexibility on all aspects.
This might require an extra trip for load ins, but you might consider a "bass module and stick speaker array" system. These were pioneered by Bose back in the day but now are manufactured by others. I've used them and listened to others play acoustic guitars and keys in concert and they seem to fill large spaces and cut through even the loudest bands. Good luck.
Something that comes to mind... maybe you need your keyboard monitors much closer to you. My current keyboard monitors are right beside my music stand, one to the left, one to the right. I don't need a huge amount of power with them being that close and I find that the more clearly I hear the keys the better I play them.
(I sometimes have to be mindful of how I may be hearing the mains as sometimes one of the other guys in the band wants to put the mains behind us and use the "backwash" of the mains as monitors. I get some really weird stuff happening in my ears when we do that, even with my keyboard monitors, maybe phasing stuff. Leads to ear fatigue for me., but that's another topic.)
I customized a set of desktop studio monitor stands to attach directly to my keyboard Z-stand so they require no other stands. You say you have more than one keyboard so it might work a bit differently for you, not sure. The current keyboard monitors are an old set of Alesis Proactive 2.0 that I've had for quite a long time, not exactly powerhouses, but they have plenty considering they're around 30" from my ears and a decent bass sound, something that's often lacking from small monitors. I tried using a set of Behringer B205D's which I use for a different purpose, crappy sound, plenty loud, but like listening to a tiny transistor radio even with the bass cranked all the way up.
Good luck! Hope you find something that works good for you! A lot of people are going with in-ear-monitors, something I don't really want to do (several reasons) so it can be challenging.
(I sometimes have to be mindful of how I may be hearing the mains as sometimes one of the other guys in the band wants to put the mains behind us and use the "backwash" of the mains as monitors. I get some really weird stuff happening in my ears when we do that, even with my keyboard monitors, maybe phasing stuff. Leads to ear fatigue for me., but that's another topic.)
I customized a set of desktop studio monitor stands to attach directly to my keyboard Z-stand so they require no other stands. You say you have more than one keyboard so it might work a bit differently for you, not sure. The current keyboard monitors are an old set of Alesis Proactive 2.0 that I've had for quite a long time, not exactly powerhouses, but they have plenty considering they're around 30" from my ears and a decent bass sound, something that's often lacking from small monitors. I tried using a set of Behringer B205D's which I use for a different purpose, crappy sound, plenty loud, but like listening to a tiny transistor radio even with the bass cranked all the way up.
Good luck! Hope you find something that works good for you! A lot of people are going with in-ear-monitors, something I don't really want to do (several reasons) so it can be challenging.
This is not recommended. Mains should be positioned in a line in front of the singer mics so as to prevent feedback.
On stage monitors should be positioned so that they are not pointing directly at microphones.
The use of in-ears is personal preference. They are not necessary.
When it comes to audio equipment, there is a big difference between low quality and higher quality. Paying more for higher quality is strongly recommended. For powered speakers things like Electro-Voice PXM, Yahama DZR, QSC K10 are all good and still within budget. If your budget is bigger, then brands like RCF and Meyer are recommended.
Things like Behringer and Mackie are not recommended for powered speakers. They are not of sufficient quality to stand up to the demands of on-stage performance.
Thanks, mwtzzz, I definitely get what you're saying. And I don't disagree.
Some of what I have is cheaper stuff as we're pretty low budget. We do have Yamaha mains which I really like. I have a set of Behringer floor wedges that I took a chance on that I got at a bargain that I actually like better than I might have expected. (Had compliments from the other band members that they were intended for.) Have a Yamaha mixer, probably bigger than we need but also has enough aux sends for individual monitor mixes. Yeah, decent stuff doesn't come cheap. (And some of it came from times past, like my current Alesis monitors. I wouldn't buy them again for what I use them for but I already have them and they work better than anything I've tried yet.)
I sometimes have a hard time with one of the band members who has done a lot of solo work that loves to put the mains (or main, sometimes he only uses one) basically to the side but pointed in just enough that he uses the mains as his monitors and turns them inward just enough but doesn't have them pointed directly into his microphone enough to cause feedback. Kind of a delicate situation for solo anyway, but I definitely do NOT like it for a group of us. I NEED keyboard monitors and having the mains giving me sound in addition to my monitors... they don't play well together.
Unfortunately, we play a lot of odd venues and odd rooms where we're in tight spaces with less than great acoustics. We don't typically need large wattages but we do need to control what we have well. I'm learning, and getting better at it.
I use an Electro-Voice PXM-12MP for my floor monitor. Only one floor wedge, I do everything in mono.
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I did something similar 2 gigs ago. There wasn't room for my personal monitors and I didn't have my stand retrofitted yet to be able to hold them. (odd setup) Hated it. Yeah, I got through just fine, lots of compliments, yada, yada. But I did NOT like it at all. It's not that it wasn't loud enough, it was plenty loud, loud enough that one of the other band members complained about it being too loud. But I find it so much easier to play when the keys sound REALLY GOOD to me while I'm playing them. Mono just doesn't sound that good to me. Can I use it? Sure. Would I like better? Oh, yeah. But if it works good for you, great! (No sarcasm, honest.)
Stereo doesn't do anything for the audience, but if you prefer it for yourself that's fine.Yeah, I really do. Guess I'm spoiled...