Curious what your experience with live performance is, how much of it, and what kind of music... Super picky is great for the studio, but doesn't work real well for live rock music. I'm the keyboardist in two professional cover bands in the L.A. area and there's been more than one occasion when I couldn't hear myself at all on stage and had to play from muscle memory. These were at gigs in front of hundreds of people. Being able to adapt and deal with less-than-ideal situations is crucial. The show must go on.
Keys amplification
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Wow! I'm impressed. You're obviously in a league way above my pay grade. I absolutely cannot and will not even try to play without being able to hear myself. Can't do it, won't do it, won't make myself out to be a fool trying. In my travels, I have occasionally met keyboard players that could pretty much play anything off of a sheet of paper but were helpless without the sheet music in front of them. I suspect those are players who could play from muscle memory alone and probably still sound pretty good. I play about 95% by ear. I'd consider myself "dyslexic" for reading music. I can read it but it's tedious and even when I played classical (Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky, etc), my general playing tended towards reading - memorizing - and seeing the music as a "reminder" that I could refer to if my memory slipped a bit. At best, I was a terrible sight reader.
FWIW, I play jazz, more of the smooth swing era type, numerous Sinatra numbers, a bit of Basie, a bit of Brubeck, a bit of Evans, etc. Small venues, typically between 50 and 250 people. Typically, the arrangements are mine. This is the most recent playing experience, only of the last couple of years. Previous was about 40+ years of a fairly high level of church music, piano and organ mostly.
Ok, this makes a little more sense, jazz tends to be quieter, the db levels are way below what we do in rock, the audiences are more interested in hearing the nuances of what you're playing, and if you're playing a B3 or an actual piano then you wanna be in tune with your instrument.
But it still doesn't explain your need for stereo.
By the way, when I say play by "muscle memory" I'm not referring to sheet music. My use of sheet music stopped when I was age 14 (I also was never a good sight reader). From that point on (I'm in my 50s now), I play 100% by ear. My opinion is that conscious thought should be absent when you play and that playing by ear is crucial. Furthermore, unlike most tribute band keyboardists, I don't use an iPad and I don't try to sound "exactly like the original album", I have always considered that to be a goofy approach to music.
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It's a preference. Why do people put salt on their eggs? Or ketchup on their hamburger? Or a bunch of other things that aren't necessary?
I like stereo. I like the effects that brings to the table for my personal audio experience while playing. Do I have to have it? No. It enhances my playing experience. Arguments can be made both for and against stereo in a main mix and my own opinions vary depending upon the room. I've heard good sounds in rooms with both setups. FWIW, we're playing mostly mono for the house sound in our gigs, the bass, drums and vocals all get mono signals which they are perfectly happy with. The house typically works just fine with mono. I'm the weirdo that wants to hear my keys in stereo.
Yeah, I kinda got that. Didn't mean to paint you into a box on that one. I was thinking of a guy in New Orleans that was a colleague in the music dept of a church we both worked at. Interesting guy, could play very well, but only with sheet music. He also had no sense of "indexing" such that he could have played a piano that was transposed a full two or three tones away from the keys he was actually hitting and he'd have played it perfectly. I'd have fallen apart completely since the note my mind may be saying I played was "middle C" but the tone my ear heard when playing that specific note on the keyboard was a Bb, that would be a disconnect that would not go well for me at all. (I worked for a few decades as a piano tuner so have some aural memory that some would consider "perfect pitch". It's not "perfect" but my mind gets confused if it gets far from it. Perhaps a blessing, perhaps a curse. Sometimes my ears hear stuff I don't know if I wanna hear but they were trained to hear stuff most people don't.) Putting my hands where my brain tells me a C chord should be, playing it and hearing a Bb chord, won't work. The ears say, no, that's Bb and want the hands to move up, but the hand positions aren't the same anymore when my brain and ear hear the concert C. Hearing nothing, it feels like stabbing in the dark. I might hit something good but I wouldn't wanna depend on it.
I do get the idea of "muscle memory", and it definitely has application. Your skills seem to allow you to use that with 100% independence of any sound, and I admire that. It's not a skill I have despite my hands knowing the feel of quite a lot of various chord structures, runs, fills, rhythms, etc. There's an auditory feedback loop I can't escape. Granted, I can play with a whole lot less than perfect sound, but when the sound is amazing, stuff comes out that I didn't know was in me, and I like that. Probably means more to me in the jazz genre than it would in other types of music.
I am able to pull it off once in a blue moon when absolutely necessary, but I definitely need and prefer to hear myself play, there's no way around that. We did a gig last night with less-than-ideal sound, and I couldn't hear myself very well on a few of the songs, but since I already know the songs, I can get through it. I have a decent enough ear and connection with my instrument that when I press keys on the keyboard I have a good idea of what it will sound like even if I can't hear it.
if you ask me to do that with a brand new song, it's hit-and-miss. Especially if I have to do it on the fly (which sometimes happens in a gigging cover band). I need to know at least the starting bass note and I need to be listening closely to the chord progression. For standard chord progressions, I don't need to be at my instrument, I can figure those out just by listening. But if things are non standard, I need to be at my instrument to get auditory feedback.
I have good relative pitch, but not absolute pitch. So if the band is playing a song I don't know, then I must be able to hear myself so I can pick out the tonality (root chord/key) that they are in. Once I have that, I'm good to go. But if I can't hear myself, then forget it, I'll sit out the song, because I don't want to be playing in the wrong key unknowingly.
In a large venue, stereo doesn't do anything for the audience, true. But in a small venue, especially as most sounds are intended for stereo, it most certainly does make a diff.
I agree with Biggles; Stagepass400bt would be great. I'm only in my mid 50's, and I don't want to lift a KC400 anymore either.
There *are* a couple of other options. Instead of the pricier, heavier QSC K10.2's (which are 1000w a piece!), the QSC CP8s are tiny, light, and still crank. And as an added bonus, have more bass than the K.2 series (which are intended for you to use with a subwoofer... man, I miss the original K10/K12 mk1's. Those had an extra bass boost option built in... problem was then QSC never sold any subs... so, enter the mk2's)
Finally, I often recommend the Roland PM100... it's basically the same as a KC80, but lighter and easier to carry. Oh, and much flatter frequency response... not overly bassy like the KC's are.
*however* only 2 inputs, not 3... so a 3rd would require a mixer or daisy chaining one board into another *if* one of your boards support that
Mark
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I'm like you in that I want stereo in my ears and send mono to the main PA - that's why I wrote my equipnent setup earlier in this thread.
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Wait, you're saying he doesn't need a mixer but then you say to feed the boards into a mixer and make further gain adjustment there...? (Trim is actually not the same as gain, btw).
ETA: I think some of what the OP is running into here is that keyboard outputs are typically -10, powered PA cabs are usually expecting a +4 input, and that's where the preamp/mixer can be a solution.
Headphone outs (kept at a lower output level) should generally work, though if a board wasn't designed with this usage in mind, it may be less than ideal (e.g. it could be noisier or have altered frequency response). But another issue here relates to your other comments about mono vs. stereo... headphone out is usually stereo (i.e. unless the entire board only operates in mono to begin with). Most boards' rear panel 1/4" line outputs include an automatic sum-to-mono on one of the jacks. Without that, unless you're summing to mono elsewhere in the chain, the headphone jack will give you only one side of the stereo out. This may be fine (in fact, sometimes it's even preferable!), but it may not always be what you want, and is at least something to be aware of (e.g. it could have an impact on what sounds you choose or how you might want to edit them).
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Most mixers will take a L/R input on one of its stereo input channels and then create a mono version of them (by internal passive mixing) which is then sent to the Aux Send outputs. That can be sent to the main PA without affecting any of the local sound arrangements the instrumentalist may have - monitors or IEM's. If you do want to use the stereo headphone output, turn down the gain level and then use either of the channels or alternatively, use a 'Y' cable to split the channels into their individual parts.
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Yes, there are multiple solutions to getting mono out of a headphone out, depending on how the rest of the chain is set up. It was just another variable to consider here, e.g. in the event that there actually is no mixer, or the mixer does not have channels with stereo inputs that sum to mono, whatever.
I guess classical music is goofy? ;-) When it comes to pop stuff, personally, I feel that it's best to stick pretty faithfully to the original, unless it's a conscious decision to do your own arrangement. I mean, you don't want to sound like you're trying to do the original arrangement but just not doing it very well (e.g. chords or key lines that aren't quite right). But "how faithful is faithful enough" also depends on the song.
Wow! You guys make me glad I play jazz! LOL!! For me, I WANT an original sound, DIFFERENT than what anyone else does.
None of the big names in jazz are "just like" anyone else.
Kind of a different mindset. I get that a "cover band" is totally different, as is classical music, neither of which are where I go. But it's an interesting discussion.
None of the big names in jazz are "just like" anyone else.
Kind of a different mindset. I get that a "cover band" is totally different, as is classical music, neither of which are where I go. But it's an interesting discussion.
Those Bose bass module & stick setups - also made by other manufacturers - are great for a solo gig or maybe a duo, but are not effective for a full band setup.
I'm saying he doesn't need a personal mixer in addition to the mixer they use for the PA. He just needs to send his keyboards to the PA mixer.
You feed a powered PA with a mixer. Any decent mixer has gain knobs for each channel, so just use the gain to bring up your keyboards to an appropriate level. It doesn't matter if the keyboards are outputting somewhere between -10 and +4, the gain knob is there to compensate for this.
This is a good point, but if you've got a decent mixer then you don't need to use your Headphone out, no matter how low of a signal your rear panel outputs are putting out. Using the headphone out is just a last resort in the case where you have a crappy mixer.
I think you guys are overcomplicating this. What I do in my band is simple and it works great:
I put my keyboards into a Boss EQ pedal which I use as a volume boost. From there it goes into a Radial ProDI. From there it goes to a channel on a Mackie ProFX16v3. The gain knob is adjusted on the Mackie to where it flickers green, and the volume fader is set to around 8dB below unity so that keys are beneath the singers. That's it. I wrote this up in a couple posts "PA Set Up", "Soundboard Mix" here :
An example of how this sounds in my band from a Zoom recorder placed in the audience about 40 feet in front of the mains is given here:
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Classical music is great, that's all I played from ages 9-14, but the extent to which a lot of tribute/cover band musicians go to try to play "exactly" like the album is overboard, in my opinion.
And btw, regarding classical music, improvisation was a big part of it prior to the early/mid 1800s. It was only in the mid/late 1800s that playing "exactly as the sheet music" became a requirement.
Yeah, I always found it kind of amusing that Bach has a whole slew of "improvisations" that have to be played EXACTLY like the score indicates. I think if he were alive today he'd have a hard time playing them exactly the same way every time himself. He'd be all over the place inventing new and different ways of playing most everything that came to mind.
Like you, I played primarily classical, starting at around age 6 to about age 18. I had music scholarships offered to me by a couple of colleges but really wasn't interested at the time and was growing increasingly irritated by the lack of creativity available to me. I sometimes wonder what would have happened had I taken one of those scholarships and run with it. Will never know... but probably would have ended up a music teacher, something I did NOT wanna do despite likely having decent pay and benefits. Can't go back, no "redo button".
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It's an interesting trade-off, which, coincidentally, is something I've been dealing with lately as well. If you are playing mono (as many of us do), and the audience is hearing you only from your own gear (as is also often the case), the single powered PA cabinet can go plenty loud (at least if you're using a mixer ;-) ) but it will have a relatively narrow dispersion (often 90 degrees), meaning that people farther off-axis--which notably also often means other band members on stage with you--may not be able to hear you. My Bose L1 Pro 8 has very wide dispersion (180 degrees), but they don't project as far as my EV ZXa1... so the Bose would provide much wider coverage close to the stage, but the sound would fall off more quickly as you go further back from the stage. (The Pro 16 and Pro 32 go louder, but then you're looking at pricier and heavier stuff.)
If you want both wide nearfield coverage and deep projection of course you could use a pair of typical powered PA cabs, but much of the reason many of us play mono in the first place is that we don't want to deal with the extra gear shlep and the space it takes up and the setup/breakdown time it requires (for additional speaker, tripod, signal cable, power cable). So... I don't know. If the goal here is a single mono speaker, I wouldn't necessarily rule out the Bose approach. I think whether, for example, a single Bose L1 Pro8 is better or worse than a single QSC or EV really depends on the circumstance.
(I will say that the Bose is louder than the EV if I go direct into the EV's line input, but the EV will go louder once I add a mixer.)
Ah. You were thinking that his keyboard is going into band's PA as well, I was thinking it was not. When he said he couldn't get enough volume out of the QSC, my thought was that he could not get enough volume for the room (as opposed to not being able to get enough volume even to use it as a personal monitor).
That is really the crux of the OP, he was feeding his board directly into the QSC, it wasn't loud enough, and he was asking about adding a mixer or preamp to boost his signal. That's why I was surprised when you seemed to be telling him not to do that, since as you've said here, usually powered PA speakers are indeed fed by a mixer.
...which then goes out to the mains, with your keyboards coming back to you via a monitor feed, right? That kind of approach is ideal, but can be tricky if you don't have a sound person. At any rate, "simple" is relative... that's not as simple as what the OP is doing... feeding his keyboard into an amp, done. ;-) But he probably does want to add a small mixer.
I can see that for solo work (or solo passages), but when you have an ensemble piece? I would be surprised if they told the string players (or their piano accompanist), "okay, here's the general structure, and within that, you can play whatever you want." I could see that for modern avant garde, though.
In addition to playing keys, I am the sound person in my band for venues which don't have their own. Yeah it's a bit tricky but I got it to where I know what will sound acceptable for most venues without having to constantly check out front.
Actually, in terms of the "sound" of the instruments, jazz is one of the *least* original genres. One upright bass sounds pretty similar to another. One alto sax sounds pretty similar to another. There's far more variance and originality in the pop music world with synthesizer patches, guitar pedals, etc.
Now, if you're talking about originality in music, there's just as much of that in the pop music world as there is in jazz. In my band we make our own song arrangements. Our keyboard, guitar, sax, bass and drum solos are improvised (yes, we have a sax player.) We play covers in our own way. There's no difference between what we are doing compared to what you are doing with your jazz group.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you are trying to claim that jazz is somehow different than other genres of music? This is false. It's no more different from other types of music than those other types are from each other. Country is different than pop. Pop is different than hair metal. Hair metal is different than jazz. Jazz is different than bluegrass.
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Good grief. Yes, the jazz I currently play is totally different than the classical I used to play. Hmmm... Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto #1 vs Miles Davis' So What combined with Autumn Leaves, just because we could and decided we liked it that way. I would say that's different.
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We just did a show at a new venue this past Friday. The club said that we could use their sound system and that we just needed a mixer, monitors and cords/mics. The sound system was two JBL PRX One line arrays (bass module and stick setup). 5 piece band sounded fine. Here is video, you can see 1 of them on the right at about 1:12 in the video. Not sure if the permissions to see the video are ok or not ....
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